Leo G Dion, podcast creator and self employed Swift and iOS developer

Leo is BrightDigit. He runs the podcast Empower Apps. Leo appears on my episode and I appear on his. Have a listen to his episode featuring me. I was able to listen to a preview and I think it turned out great.

I will be on Leo's feed on January 8.
Direct link to Leo's episode with me:
https://www.empowerapps.show/76

Empowered Apps podcast

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Transcript

Jeroen Leenarts: 0:45

Hi, before we begin, I want to make sure that you are aware that this episode is part of a two part series. The first part will be on my feet. And the second part will be on Leo's feet. Search for empowered apps in your podcast player of choice to find the other episodes, it will be available one day after publishing this one. In this episode, I will interview Leo, and on his podcast feed Leo will interview me links are in the show notes. Enjoy. Hi, and welcome to another special episode with Leo GDM. It's actually very interesting how the two of us came into contact with each other. Leo has his own podcast for a while now. And he also is a freelancer. I think he is. And he has his own brand and some products that he's actually working on. Hi, Leo, how are you doing?

Leo G Dion: 1:36

Good. How are you?

Jeroen Leenarts: 1:37

Yeah, I'm great. Actually, this is my first time interviewing somebody else who's actively podcasting at the moment. So it's, it's a bit new territory for me. And I believe it's for you also something of a first time, right.

Leo G Dion: 1:51

Yeah, well, let's see if I've interviewed anybody that's been on a pod that's does their own podcast, right? I think Paul, two straws, Paul Hudson. He has his own podcast. I've interviewed him and Gi Gi Rambo has had his own podcast. So trying to think who else? Those are the big two that I can think of right now. But you're my you're my third Dutch guest. There's already okay. So congratulations on that.

Jeroen Leenarts: 2:26

But that's one thing that's a bit special about what we're doing. Because I'm going to be on your podcast, and you're on my podcast right now. Right?

Leo G Dion: 2:35

Yes, exactly. This is gonna be a fun little experiment for 2021.

Jeroen Leenarts: 2:40

Yeah, because this is gonna be the first episode that both of us are releasing in the New Year.

Leo G Dion: 2:44

Happy New Year.

Jeroen Leenarts: 2:45

Happy New Year, everybody. I just want to start a little bit with your origin story, because you're a name that that pops up regularly on my Twitter feeds. And I'm seeing more and more of your stuff popping up online. But who is Leo? What? Where did he grow up? Where did he start software development, what's your first language, stuff like that?

Leo G Dion: 3:06

So I was born and raised here in Lansing, Michigan, in the United States, been here my whole life, went to school here went to college here at Michigan State University, got always been interested in technology. Even as a young kid, I loved playing video games. And got got an Amiga 500, which is a rarity here in the US. But still, that was my first main computer eventually joined the PC world in the mid 90s. And started as I was doing my bachelor's degree here in the US got learned, obviously, C++, that's part of anybody's computer science curriculum, but also got into PHP and this new language that just came out called C sharp. And I really liked it. And I became a big like fan of dotnet and dotnet development. Besides doing PHP work, I got my first I was doing internet service, like tech support for an Internet service provider back when we had to use our phones, sorry, our landline phones, for those who of you who don't know what that means. That's how we connected to the internet, we had a thing called a modem, it was a lot slower. And sometimes it would make your parents upset because they would use the phone line while you're trying to connect. And so I ended up getting a job as a tech support rep. Helping people set up their Outlook Express or setting up their Netscape Navigator so they can connect online. And then eventually I got a job doing kind of like building websites, internally using PHP and MySQL. And that was that was really my big introduction along with my computer science degree. And eventually, the job market wasn't really that great in the early aughts, so to speak. So then I ended up getting a master's degree in digital media and art technology. And that really introduced me to stuff like flash and video editing and audio editing and things like that skills that I use right away. But I've actually been using quite a bit over the last year that I've really enjoyed, even though like Flash is dead now in 2021. But I right after I got my master's degree, the company ended up getting bought out, ironically, and I didn't have I end up going back from doing web development to being a tech support rep, which I was when I was a freshman and that wasn't really working with me since I just had this big master's degree. Now I'm going back to doing when I was a freshman So I ended up getting a job at the state, state of Michigan here doing more dotnet development, government work really wasn't a good fit for me. So then I got a full time gig at a small software company doing a lot of visualization stuff, a lot of what was called Silverlight at the time, and C sharp. And then they're like, hey, like, we want to build an app for this new device called an iPad. That was my first application that I ever built for an Apple device. And I was like, this stuff is big. It's really important. A lot of people use their iPhones. And so I started really getting into iOS development. And eventually, I talked with my wife, and we felt it was a good time to, for me to start my own business. And that's what I did, I kind of did a little bit of everything, PHP, C sharp, Objective C, but then I started really fine that my passion was in the Apple space, and started really focusing on doing that. And once swift came out, that was, that was where I was going to invest my time in was swift development. And I've been doing that since swift came out back in 2014. And that's what I've been doing with bright digit. And then I have been doing a podcast for a couple of years now, a lot of talking a lot of public speaking, not only in cocoa heads, but around the world now this year, around the world in whatever manner that means in 2020. But yeah, I've been really liking it. I've been really loving, doing swift development, server side, client side, watch what pi, whatever it is, and it's been great.

Jeroen Leenarts: 7:24

So what I find interesting in your introduction that you now did, is that you also, again, are someone that's mentioning that you have a life partner that is actually very much part of, of the business side of things that you're doing that you're running, of course, it's your business, you're doing it. But I reckon she's involved with a lot of the decision making, what you will be focusing your time on, because everything has cost and everything has a benefit. Is that the same for you as well, that at the kitchen table, business gets discussed or not?

Leo G Dion: 7:57

Yeah, very much. So yeah. My wife, Betsy has been awesome, especially this year, with all the craziness and the kids home all the time. And like, if anything, she's been really encouraging about the business, especially, you know, they say there's like peaks and troughs. And she's been really fantastic during the troughs, and really encouraging. And that's been fantastic. And we've like, part of life isn't just like making money and having this business, but also having this family here and like living, living life and not just living everything for the business. And I think that's that's part of the big picture of, you know, doing this is me having much more of a big picture of like, where I see myself in 1020 years, running break digit.

Jeroen Leenarts: 8:40

How many kids do you have

Leo G Dion: 8:41

five,

Jeroen Leenarts: 8:42

that's a big family.

Leo G Dion: 8:43

We've always wanted to have a big family. But we we struggled for our first few years trying to have kids. So part of surnamed bright digit was also we decided to jump into doing adoption and foster care here in Michigan. And so yeah, our first four kids are adopted. And then we have a birth kit as well, our youngest, who's quite a little little scamp who's Yeah, really, really cute, really cute kids really wonderful. So yeah, that's part of part of our life this year is like me doing this podcast and running a business while having kids home for a vast majority of this year, actually, you know, during the remote learning thing, so yeah,

Jeroen Leenarts: 9:27

so so when you, when you ventured out on your own, the company that you started for yourself was immediately called Bright digit,

Leo G Dion: 9:35

I was trying to look for something like digital encoding based, well, at the same time, like a clean, well designed. And so like, I think it was busta name.com, where you can search synonyms, and I'll search for domain name availability based on synonyms, and bright digit was available, and I was like, has a good ring to it. I like it, so that I ended up going with that. I'm still it's actually a good name. I'm actually actually still like it. Um, so yeah.

Jeroen Leenarts: 10:08

As Brad did when it started, what was the what was the business plan in the beginning?

Leo G Dion: 10:13

The business plan, try to find a gig. That was big money. Yeah. I mean, I want to do product stuff, too. I think that was a big part of it is the passion of like being able to work on your own thing. But like the independence of being a contractor, and like picking your own schedule, and your own hours was a big deal to me. So those two things kind of work together, in a sense. And then it was just a matter of like finding out how important it was to find like a specific thing I was really good at, because like well I can do pretty much anything like I want it to be much more. I don't know how to put it. Like, there's a whole idea of like a T shaped developer, where you have like, kind of good idea of everything, but you're really good at one specific thing also. And I found like, the Swift space was really a great place to do that. Like, there's 100 1000s of like JavaScript developers out there, JavaScript is major and huge. And I could, I could have stayed in that. And I actually, like, started a JavaScript group probably like, six years ago or so because there was no JavaScript group in town. Meetup. But like, it's really like, the money and the community. And like, the focus is really in Swift. And I just, I've just consistently, like, stayed in that space. And it's been fantastic.

Jeroen Leenarts: 11:37

Okay, so nowadays, you're broadcasting, I reckon that you have some products and that you also, you do still do contract work, I think. So if you look at your in 2020, your, your income portfolio, and you compare it to when you started bright digit, what were the biggest shifts in where your income was coming from,

Leo G Dion: 11:59

I don't think just shifted, like there hasn't really been a shift there like that, like, still, my income is by by and large, like the contract work easily. It's much more like where I spend my time and what my spend my time doing. So I would say like 2019 was my best year, in a lot of ways. But obviously, with 2020, like, I took a hit like everybody did, I think, and part of that was like a conscious decision on my part going back to family was like, I just don't have the time with all the kids home doing 40 hour week contracts. I don't know, I've told people that like, and it's been tough in a lot of ways, because I've had to say no to some stuff. But it's just, it's, I'm just being honest with my clients and being like, look like I got kids at home, like I can't, like I can't put in the amount of time I'd love to put in on a contract. And doing every year all the other day to day stuff I have to run with my business. So like, that's the sacrifice of had to make this year. I think next year, it's not going to be anywhere near as bad. But yeah, just like, you know, it is what it is. And I've had to do that.

Jeroen Leenarts: 13:12

So are you saying that the biggest change between 2020 and 2019? Was that you had to work from home instead of at a your, your contracts? Office?

Leo G Dion: 13:24

I've always worked from home. It's that that's your other people at home with me? If that makes sense?

Jeroen Leenarts: 13:31

Yeah. Yeah. So you're always with Brian, he will always say remote worker?

Leo G Dion: 13:35

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I'd love to go on to certain clients sites if needed. Like, I don't mind that. But that just couldn't happen. Honestly, in 2020. So, um, and then with the kids home, doing remote school for probably about six months. It just was really difficult. And then being home in the summer, too. You know, it was really difficult for my wife and I to kind of manage that. And both work. So we had to, like split up our schedule in such a way that one of us can focus on the kids and one of us can focus on work,

Jeroen Leenarts: 14:07

so and your wife is she's working as well.

Leo G Dion: 14:11

Yeah, she is. She's also pretty savvy when it comes to math and technology. She's an actuary. So yeah, it's important for her to be able to have her meetings as well.

Jeroen Leenarts: 14:21

You already mentioned that you did a big simplification of your entire business process in 2020. Due to circumstances,

Leo G Dion: 14:29

yeah, well, what's funny, um, the other thing, too, in 2019, is I pretty much stopped hosting meetups and doing local networking. And that was totally a coincidence. And I think it worked out to my benefit and 2020 Because obviously, there is no local networking or meetups in 2020. So that that's like my big thing in 2019 was just kind of like, really honing my focus. So I had another podcast, okay, productive with Eric Gillespie. And like, at the end of 2019, we both mutually discussed ending that, you know, and that was very amicable. And so I cut that out. And then I wanted to focus more on attending conferences and public speaking in 2020, which actually worked out to my benefit, in a lot of ways. So yeah, and I'm still kind of in a simplification streak. I'm trying to still figure out how to simplify even further in 2021. But I cleared out a lot of things at the end of 2019.

Jeroen Leenarts: 15:31

So when I looked for you as a conference speaker in 2020, I actually saw that you were at quite a number of events as a speaker, not probably not in person, but digitally online. Stuff like cold mash Cocottes Live UI con 360 I def back to Mac swift heroes live iOS DC deaf camp and enter Spain. So did you have a lot of experience speaking at conferences before this year or not?

Leo G Dion: 15:59

I think 2019 I did three conferences, and maybe one other conference. And I think that was it, like, the leap from 2019 to 2020. Was was quite tremendous. As far as the amount of talks I did this year,

Jeroen Leenarts: 16:16

business wise did it? Did it bring you any benefit already? Or are you still working on that?

Leo G Dion: 16:21

I think it's still a work in progress. But I think definitely like name recognition became a thing. And like being able to like have your name out, there is always a big benefit, I got to meet like a lot of really cool people and got to meet actually like a lot of future guests for the podcast that way. Also, for me, I think I'm continually like honing my presentation skills. I did Toastmasters for a few few years, and I was really good first starting off, but like, there is the you'll appreciate like the IT side of actually doing a presentation both live, as well as edited, they each have their own little idiosyncrasies that you have to get used to. So like that was a benefit to me as well.

Jeroen Leenarts: 17:09

So the conference talks were those pre recorded so that you perform them live.

Leo G Dion: 17:15

So I'm code mash I actually did in January, and that was actually in person. So I did it, I was actually able to squeeze out a live in person talk in 2020. So I did two live in person talks there. And then out of the rest of the conferences, I would say about half were live and half were edited.

Jeroen Leenarts: 18:09

So what decides whether or not you're doing it talk live or pre recorded.

Leo G Dion: 18:13

I always prefer pre recorded. So really, that was a decision of the conference organizers. As far as whether they wanted to do live or in person, I think it would have been a UI UI comp was the first one I did where I was given that option. And at first I was thinking why because then I don't have to edit it. But in the end, it just ended up being like a lot easier for me to edit, and record it and put that out. So I've always preferred now at this point, like doing pre recorded conference videos.

Jeroen Leenarts: 18:47

That's it's interesting, because this topic is something that's very near and dear to me as well, because with the Dutch cocoa hats we also have, we've been doing our monthly meetups throughout the year, also doing lockdowns, and we weren't able to do them in person. But there we also had the discussion of whether or not we want to do the talks like in person in front of a camera or pre recorded and that we then just broadcast video. And in the end, it's also for us hosting an event, it's much easier to have a pre recorded video because you don't have all the extra connectivity that can break down with speaker. And that's that's for us. That's the biggest benefits of having something pretty good because it takes away another point of failure in the entire process.

Leo G Dion: 19:32

I think like, I've heard a lot of attendees feel like they miss out on something with a pre recorded video. But my opinion, I don't think it's really there. I think that with the pre recorded video, you can I think you need to have the host available or the I'm sorry, the presenter available, both during the talk as well as have like an actual live q&a or have them on slack as well. And I think if you can do that you you gain a lot more I think than trying like the benefit of just having the live talk. I don't I don't honestly see it, because it's kind of like if they flop it's a flop like I guess if you want that, like good for you. But like as far as pre recorded, there's a lot of benefits to it.

Jeroen Leenarts: 20:21

Yeah, it is mandatory for us that the speaker is in chat available during the presentation. But also afterwards, we also have a a live q&a Unless stuff drops out. But

Leo G Dion: 20:32

yeah, I think that's totally reasonable. I think that yeah, that gives the attendee everything they want. They have access to the speaker to ask them any questions.

Jeroen Leenarts: 20:41

So yeah, you did a lot of conference talks in 2020. A lot more than in 2019. Yes. Even though you were planning on on reducing your workload on the conference area, you did a lot more.

Leo G Dion: 20:55

Yeah. And I think like part of it was with the less contract work, I just pretty much picked up more public speaking in a way to make up for that. Hopefully, hopefully, like basically making like an investment more long term investment in the future by doing these public speaking gigs. I mean, I enjoyed it. But obviously like there's there's a reason for me to do it besides just You know, giving back to the community.

Jeroen Leenarts: 21:21

You mentioned that you did less contract work was that a conscious decision? Even though the circumstances might have made it harder as well to do contract work? In New COVID era?

Leo G Dion: 21:33

No, it just goes back to time availability, like I would have done as much contract work given if 2020 was a more normal year. But with with everybody home, it just became difficult to manage full time contract. A lot of people want you for that full full time contract work. And I just I don't have the availability to do that with everybody home.

Jeroen Leenarts: 21:56

Yeah, I can imagine. Same thing going on here, except that I have a half a day job, so to speak. But they've been very, very supportive in how things are going here in the Netherlands. So that's, that's okay, as well. And that's really good. Yeah, it's, it's so important to to be able to stay sane this year. Yeah. So So yeah, you entered the local meetups in 2020. You focus more on, on networking, but then through your own brand, because you you cut out the Okay, productive on good terms with your other host, Eric. So what I noticed is that you've been sending out quite a few newsletters, and you've been blogging more in 2020, as well. You already mentioned that you made a conscious switch from focusing the networking effort that you do more towards your own brand. How did that work out for you in 2020?

Leo G Dion: 22:56

I think it worked out pretty well, considering you know, the weirdness that is to 2020. Like, especially with the podcast, like I've seen actual growth there, even though people are commuting, which I feel like is a big part of podcast listening is commuting. But yeah, the podcast has continued to grow. And yeah, it's just kind of honing the brand. As far as like, I have two audiences. Really, I have the audience of folks who are managers and CTOs who might hire me at some point for a contract. And then I have fellow developers, and just trying to make sure that I balanced that the developers who are interested in the nitty gritty of specific API and how to do development, and then the CTOs and managers who are more interested in okay, how do I use the specific swift technology with my team? And managing that? And I think that's, that's the kind of balancing act that I'm still kind of figuring out here in 2021.

Jeroen Leenarts: 23:57

Yeah, it's, it's indeed suited if you have a tech audience and a more management focused audience, that you Yeah, of course, both groups are somewhat technical. But there is a difference in how you have to how you have to serve your message to each audience. Right, exactly. So how do you manage to put all that in one podcast episode? Because I listened to your podcast as well, because, yeah, it's it's one of the few podcasts out there that is, that is that has a longer lifespan, and that this actually stays interesting to me. Thank you. But how do you manage to how do you manage to balance this because I'm a software developer, and I'm one of those guys that give me some, give me some technical challenge, and I go deep, but then having to explain it to somebody who's non technical, it takes a lot of effort and energy out of me. So how do you balance this? And how do you make sure that both sections of your content remain interesting to both groups of listeners?

Leo G Dion: 25:01

So like, I think I can bring a unique perspective by covering more of like, the team side of it, or maybe more of the managerial side of it? Because, like, it's one thing to do. Server side Swift, for instance. But it's another thing to be like, okay, like, when is this actually practical to use? Why? Why is it? If you're a manager, why is it so much better to have server side swift as opposed to having like a separate Ruby team or separate PHP team or C sharp team, for instance, you know, what, what is the business reasons? Not just like, oh, yeah, I love Swift. I want to keep doing swift because that's, that would be the reason I would do it. Right? But like, if you're actually making a product or make you have a big major company that's medium to enterprise size, like, that's where it's like, important to consider that cost, and why you might want to do it, and then Okay, once you've done that, like, what are some pitfalls when it comes to managing that team? Because I think like, the technical stuff is actually not that hard. It's the Okay, I've got a team of five How do I manage this work in the most productive fashion based on a specific technology such as like, server side Swift, and keep it going? Because I think like that's, that's really At the end of the day, when it comes to having a business and making money to keep it sustainable, I think that's the question that like most folks have, and that will keep the money flowing, so to speak. Does that answer your question?

Jeroen Leenarts: 26:32

I think so. Yeah. It's, it's, it's a good one. And I think it's, you indicate that you start at, at the basis, the technical stuff. And then basically, you make it interesting for the engineers. And then you explain it to the management type of person to actually attach a value to what you have just discussed. So and I think that's actually pretty good. Because these these business types, they're always thinking in in value streams, and what's in it for me. And if you can explain that to software developers, I've noticed that it's a lot easier to convince your boss to actually be OK with dropping iOS 12 support, for instance, because there's actual business value,

Leo G Dion: 27:19

right? Like, like a swift UI, for instance. That's a great example, right? Where it's like, I know why I like swift UI, I know the benefits of Swift UI. But like, there's, if you have a big major app, where you have a lot of people that are still on iOS 12, or you have a big codebase, that still uses a lot of UI kit, like, that's like, that's a big investment to switch over to Swift UI. So the question ends up becoming is like, for the business? How do I slowly transition to Swift UI? Because it is the future? Why should I switch over to Swift UI? Why do I make this big investment and change my whole architecture over to reactive programming? Those are the questions that you have to answer and make the business case on. It's not just like, oh, I want money, because I'm selfish, you know, it's not just that it's like, you have to keep a business running, you need money. Like, if you turn your whole code, what was the story I read recently, was, it was an Uber, like, they moved all their code over Swift, that was like a big Hacker News thing, right? Like, they moved all their code base over to Swift. And it was like, you know, I love Swift, but like, that's a big business decision to move your code over to version 1.0. I don't know the whole exact story. But like, that's a great example of like, just being this like person who just jumps on to something enthusiastically because it's because they do see a future in it, but at the same time, like there's a risk that you're taking, and I think it's important to like, address that even to a technical audience. So, you know, new technologies have their risks attached to it, even if they are superior in a lot of ways.

Jeroen Leenarts: 28:57

Yeah, that's true. Because at the place where I work, we have a code base of five years old, which is a couple 100,000 lines of code. Still a lot of Objective C in there, which is, which has been reduced, in this year, quite quite a number from like, 90,000 to 20,000 lines and the Swift went up from 100,000 lines to 200,000 lines. And like a month ago, we were able to drop iOS 12 support. And, and now new functionality is a new features are intended to be built with Swift UI in and combined. We're still finding our way but we'll manage

Leo G Dion: 29:35

you luckily, like Apple is pretty life been pretty good. Whether it's like with Swift, you Swift, excuse me with like bridging files, right? When Swift came out, or even a swift UI, there's a lot of ways you can do UI view representable. And also go the other route, you know, with bringing in UI Kit controls, excuse me, bringing swift UI into UI kit as well. Like they're usually good about making sure that that bridge is always there. But yeah, it's just, you know, be careful with any new technology. If you have something that works, you know, don't try to like, necessarily come in and like break it by bringing something in your way. Like I think it sounds like you guys are doing the right thing. Just slowly merging, moving your code over from Objective C,

Jeroen Leenarts: 30:20

slowly and sometimes with a big hammer.

Leo G Dion: 30:23

Right, right. Yeah, exactly.

Jeroen Leenarts: 30:25

Let's see, we discussed conference speaking that you did in 2020. We talked about your podcast in the podcast. Do you have any growth numbers over the last year that you can share or that you're willing to share?

Leo G Dion: 30:36

I'll give you a bit I give you percentages. Um, I'll just say like, over the last year, my numbers have gone up by like 400%. As far as audience growth, that's even with like I said, less people. I feel like less people are listening to podcasts in 2020 Because they're not commuting. I could be totally wrong on that. I know I find myself having to be more purposeful about listening to podcasts and making time for it. But I'm on transistor FM, which has been fantastic. Justin Jackson, who founded it, like personally got me to switch over because I was hosting podcasts on like AWS s3 and WordPress. and it sucked. So I'm really glad I, I moved over to transistor since then. And that's been that's been really good. But yeah, I mean, it seems like growth has kind of snowballed over the year, which has been fantastic. As far as I'm concerned.

Jeroen Leenarts: 31:36

Yeah, double digit. growth numbers are good, but triple digit growth numbers are really good. Congratulations on that for this year. Thank you. So I'm hoping to replicate your, your success. Because I started in October, my main focus right now was to not pot fate after three months. And to make sure that I keep on going and I get a rhythm going with a podcast.

Leo G Dion: 31:58

Yeah, like one of the things I found encouraging. I don't know where I read this, I think it might have been Pat Flynn. But like, MKBHD, I don't know if you follow him on YouTube. But like, like, he didn't even get like 20 subscribers until he put out like 100 videos, I don't know the exact statistics. So please don't quote me on it. But like you have to it's a long game with this stuff. It's not something that you can't expect after three episodes to have like 1000 people subscribing to your podcast or 1000s of people subscribing to your podcast. It's a long game you have to play in like, once you once you realize that like then you set much more realistic expectations for for your show.

Jeroen Leenarts: 32:38

Yeah, for me, the reason I started podcasting was because I did a presentation during COVID. So it was doing a live presentation. And I really hated it. Because just talking to a wall, not getting feedback from an audience that was never so painful. And I was like, okay, best way to deal with this is to do it more often. And what's the best way to do that is to just start podcasting. Right. That was the initial idea. And then it's kind of snowballed from there.

Leo G Dion: 33:07

Well, it's funny you say that, because like going back to my thing about meetups and doing doing talks at meetups or hosting a meetup. Like I found that it's honestly easier to reach a larger audience with a podcast than it is with doing a local meetup, especially here in a town that's not like super big, like, it's a medium sized town, I would say. But like, I can speak right now we're speaking to like, hundreds of people, or whatever your numbers are. And like, that's easily, it's easier. And it's easily reaching a bigger audience. And you are speaking at a local meetup, and it's recorded. So like, people can pick it up at any point and like, listen to it, you know, in the future, so to speak.

Jeroen Leenarts: 33:50

So there's a very long tail, which downloads that that's something I noticed as well, that sometimes you have an episode that's doesn't like really, it's not a runaway success when you launch it. But then over the weeks, and over the months, downloads, keep on coming in, and then all of a sudden, this person made some appearance somewhere, and the downloads were like sky high, all of a sudden, you were like, trying to figure it out what happens here. And then, and then you just talk to the to this person, they say, Hey, that date something special? You did? Oh, yeah, I appeared on some YouTube stream, there and there. And yes, you should look it up. It's fun. And then you look through it. And it's like, yeah, he doesn't mention me. But he does mention something about podcasts. So people were searching his name in, in podcasts and found my episode. And of course, not all those people will stick. But hey, any download is good, right? Yeah, yeah. So you also have a number of products that you're working on hearts, which mitigates speculate awkwardness? Can you first tell me what these four products are about in just a few words, and then what in 2020, were the biggest growth and the biggest successes with these products,

Leo G Dion: 35:03

I'll start out with just like an open source project that I worked on, which is miscut. So I've been really interested in sort of packages. My last talk and Spain was on Swift packages. And also an interest in server side Swift. And with hard Twitch, which we'll talk about in a bit, I ended up using a lot of cloud kit, but it also is a server side app. And there's no like library out there to do any cloud kit stuff on the server cloud kit, the cloud kit framework is only available for like Mac OS and iOS. So I started looking into the cloud kit, the dark area known as the cloud kit, web services API, and started using it. So I'm actually was using cloudkit on the server for her twitch. And then I refactor that into a separate library that's become miscut. And slowly adding features to it. I think I'm on version 03 or 0204. Maybe by the time we release this, but essentially, it's a way for you to be able to interface with Cloud kit outside of the cloud kit framework and essentially with the specific use case of being able to do on To do talk to cloudkit via your own server side application in Swift, so that is that is miscut. And so that that gets into her Twitch, which is a fun little app that I've written. I'm interested in doing watch development, I'm interested in doing server side development. And also, I like watching speedruns. On occasion, if you know what that means. That's people who play video games and try to play usually classic games, and try to beat them as fast as you can. Occasionally, I've seen folks share their heart rate while they do this. While there's a few products out there that aren't that great, honestly, I figured why not just use the heart rate monitor you have attached to your wrist a lot of times with the Apple Watch, and share your heart rate that way. And so I built Hartwich, it's a way to share your heart rate from your Apple Watch to a web browser and then being able to use like your whatever live streaming application you want to use to share that web browser window via heart Twitch into OBS or whatever using so that is essentially hard twitch. And then speculate has been an app that I've been developing in last five years. But it's essentially a Mac OS app for creating app icons and image sets out of SVG files. So it does all the complicated work of resizing, and converting your graphics, so that they can be used in an asset catalog and your Xcode project. And then lastly is orchid nest, which is kind of a little hobby site I've done I'm using Dave ver wears list of iOS developer blogs and building a online repository or website of all the different blog posts that come out. So it scans RSS feeds, and creates a website that links to the different new blog posts in the Swift community that are out there. So those are the four products in products I've been working on this year. And which is the one probably that's hard to watch and and speculator both in the app store. They don't have monetization yet. But that is what I'm actually working on right now on ironically, is, is learning more about stripe and in app purchases.

Jeroen Leenarts: 38:48

So that's actually three products and the supporting library have these three products been doing in 2020 Compared to your contract work?

Leo G Dion: 38:58

Really hard Twitch has been really growing a lot in the last year, especially since Halloween. So besides like speedrunning, there's a whole community of folks who play horror games and want to share their heart rate while they play horror games. And so her Twitch has really grown since Halloween here, you know, at the end of October. It doesn't have obviously any monetization yet. That's what I'm looking at right now, figuring out what's the best way to do that. And so that, but as far as growth, it's been doing really well. So now it's just a matter of figuring out the best way to like monetize for folks.

Jeroen Leenarts: 39:37

Okay, so that's still a work in progress, but with a lot of potential it seems. So I think we covered most of the things you did in 2020 by now. So what are your plans for next year, because you have some products, you have a podcast conference speaking is probably going to be your thing you want to keep working on? So how does the future look for bright digit?

Leo G Dion: 40:03

You know, honestly, like, I think what I'd like to see at the end of 2021 is, like greater focus in what areas have been really working and what haven't, I do want to keep doing conference talks, I think it's going to happen, I think I'm going to be probably unfortunately, doing more remote talks. I don't think that's going to end anytime soon. And I'd like to get more into writing. Like, I feel like that's a big challenge for me is like making that a regular thing of tart really like targeted technical writing. And, you know, I'd love to be able to put out a book but you know, that's, that's not really, that was a goal that I would have set maybe a year or two years ago. But I also feel like I'd rather like not invest a lot of time into a book without knowing like, what the audience really wants. And I think that's a big part of it is that targeted time, or that targeted content that I really have confidence knowing that this is what people really want in the Swift community.

Jeroen Leenarts: 41:01

So just saying writing and that's, that's more short form content. So blog posts, I reckon.

Leo G Dion: 41:08

Yeah, definitely shorter form. Like I think a lot of my blog posts in 2020 were really long. And I've started realizing that there's much more benefit to splitting that out into separate posts. doing it that way,

Jeroen Leenarts: 41:20

and the podcasts is probably going to be keep it going on the rhythm that it's going right now, I guess.

Leo G Dion: 41:27

Yeah, I think just, I think I'm gonna have 4345 episodes out this year in 2020. So I don't intend on putting out more episodes, I don't feel this need to like put out an episode every week, I don't think that that's necessarily a great goal to set, I pretty much have been doing three episodes a month, roughly, you know. And then there's obviously busy season within summer with dub dub DC, where I might want to do put more episodes out. There's quiet times during December, for instance, where like, I just want to break. So obviously the ebbs and flows, but um, yeah, I think I think it's silly doing what I'm doing, maybe putting out more video and like solo episodes, or just me talking. I'd like to do that. I want to do that more last year, but with doing the conference stocks and ended up kind of sucking that away. But yeah, just keep doing what I'm doing as far as the podcast is concerned. And I think it's it's continuing to work. And I don't intend to change that really,

Jeroen Leenarts: 42:34

what I noticed is that that you keep on mentioning your focus. So at the beginning of 2020, you already did a did a big change by cutting down a lot of the access in your work. And by the sound of it, you want to put another round of reducing in place so that you have like more focus on specific things and being sure that the things that you focus your attention on that those efforts are actually more worthwhile compared to what you've been doing in the last two years. So what is your plan? And what is your approach to actually figure out what needs your attention? And when your attention is actually creating enough value for you?

Leo G Dion: 43:16

That is a really good question. I think like part of it is, do I still have the passion for it? I don't think that can be underestimated is like, okay, is this like, my just burning myself out trying to like keep going with the specific route, whether it be like local networking, or like, you know, putting up meetups and things like that is this really a benefit to me is more of a distraction, honestly. And if it is, like, that's a good indicator. I feel like when I've already started to feel like this, this is not working out, that's probably a good indication like to trust my gut. Um, I think you know, I'd like to have, I'd like to be able to cut out things in 2021. But with 2020, being as weird as it is, I don't think anything was given a fair shot, honestly. So unfortunately, unfortunately, or fortunately, like this year, I don't think there's going to be a big change as far as what I'm going to cut out. But more an idea of like, videos and conference talks has really worked out well. I've never done as many conference talks in my whole life as I did this year. And I want to continue doing that. And so that's given a lot more prominence than, say, writing, I think blog posts, I'd like to do that. But that's not anywhere near as high of a priority as the podcast or the products or the videos are doing. And so I think like just being able to understand at the end of 2021, that like, this thing has really worked out, well. This is where I need to invest my time is what I'm hopefully looking forward to seeing you at the end of the year.

Jeroen Leenarts: 44:57

Yeah, I can imagine that. Before we close, is there any? Is there any parting words or some word of wisdom that you'd like to share with people that are listening to my podcast?

Leo G Dion: 45:10

Find what you're passionate about what people want, and have focus because I think like, it's really easy nowadays to spread ourselves way too thin. And I think like, it's important to find something and have that balance with what you're passionate with, and then being able to really deep dive in it. Because that's going to be really helpful to a lot of people. And it's going to be helpful to a lot of folks, business wise and in the community as well. And, you know, just to value your time. I think that's that's really important. And I think we still I think that's been a big lesson in 2020 is like valuing that quiet time that you have and that focus that you need.

Jeroen Leenarts: 45:50

It can I can agree to that. So Leo, thank you for your time. And I think bright digit future will will be bright and digital in 2021.

Leo G Dion: 46:00

Thank you. Happy New Year.

Jeroen Leenarts: 46:02

Happy New Year everybody. Remember the other episode is on Leo's feet, empowered apps links in the show notes