Johan Delgado, a circus artist turned language teacher turned iOS developer

Johan originally is from Venezuela. He now lives in Moscow with his wife.He took an interesting journey. The Corona crisis made him switch up his career path. Have a listen and learn how a hobby can end you up with a new future and different source of income.

Learn more about Johan:

• Website
• Twitter: @esmoscu

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Transcript

Jeroen Leenarts: 0:45

So Hi, and welcome to another special episode of her podcast. I'm sitting here with Johan Delgado, and he's in Moscow right now. And he has an interesting story because he's a self taught iOS developer. He's recently. He has recently landed his first job as an iOS developer, I think. And yeah, first of all, Johan, thanks for joining us. And how are you today? Hi, I'm okay. I'm okay. Thank you for inviting me. It's a pleasure actually to be here. I really like the the podcast. Good to be here. So just to dive in straightaway, yourself thought, what did you use to teach yourself iOS development?

Johan Delgado: 1:30

Yeah, I, I did more most of my teaching was material from the internet. So I was looking into articles by podcasts on hacking with zip to it for stuff. And I was reading blog posts from many people. And I also attended a boot camp. So right when the like the last last year they they invited me to a boot camp and I attended a boot camp. And it was a really nice experience. I learned I learned a lot out of that. And yeah, so so most of the free stuff that is out there.

Jeroen Leenarts: 2:20

So um, would you say that the free stuff that is out there is enough to get you started? Or was there more that you needed?

Johan Delgado: 2:28

Yeah, it's to get you started is the it was good for me, because he gave me the idea that I was able to learn that I was able to do it, because I tried some paid courses, it was a little bit too advanced for me. And it was a bit disappointing. But then I started doing stuff worth that was out there free. And I got the idea that yeah, I can do this. Let me let me keep going. And of course later I start doing more more and more, I bought some books and, and courses and all of that. Because I

Jeroen Leenarts: 3:08

can imagine that if you if you step into a training or a course or workshop, and that your knowledge level at that time is not yet at the entry level of the material that you're stepping into, then it can be quite difficult. So it's always good to to check out what you what you get yourself into before you start. But self taught iOS developer you live near Moscow. Your name is not Russian. It's where are you from originally?

Johan Delgado: 3:39

I'm from Venezuela. I was worried when I was I actually come from a from a circus background so I've been living all around the world so no, no crazy that I'm in Russia.

Jeroen Leenarts: 3:54

Okay, so that that's that's already getting more intricate. Right at the start. Because a circus background from Venezuela so how did you end up from Venezuela all the way at the other end of the world in Moscow because that's like I think it's almost like exactly the other side of the world so

Johan Delgado: 4:13

much the war i i was working for a circus company in America went to the States and I met my now wife in their living at some time in in the states we decided we want to come to Russia and try try Okay, so does not have under here

Jeroen Leenarts: 4:42

and and your wife. She is originally from Russia. Okay, yeah, she's

Johan Delgado: 4:46

Russian. Yeah. So yeah. She's Russian and, and she was working in that circle store, which is like robot.

Jeroen Leenarts: 4:57

Love, Love makes you love makes you do big things. Right?

Johan Delgado: 5:00

Yeah. Like Like going, going to the other side of the wall.

Jeroen Leenarts: 5:05

So but, um, so if I'm correct you you previously were a circus artist. Is that correct? Yeah. And, and what was your skill in the circus?

Johan Delgado: 5:15

I did acrobatics. From from age seven to 22 I was doing trapeze? I don't know. A lot of stuff. Yes, everything was an acrobat for managers.

Jeroen Leenarts: 5:31

Some mostly the aerial stuff like Yeah, but

Johan Delgado: 5:35

by the specialty. Some Florida stuff but

Jeroen Leenarts: 5:41

yeah, I can imagine in the circus, you you you you do what's needed. To give a good show, right?

Johan Delgado: 5:46

Yeah, yeah. If you will say that you will need to do something different now you have to do so.

Jeroen Leenarts: 5:53

So and and the circus, is that something yet you got into from an early age?

Johan Delgado: 5:58

Yeah. Because my family on the side of my mother are all in the circle. So we got a tradition, a long, long, long tradition. So it was it was it was the thing. Like, it's like, you know that you will you will you are going to be working there with my family. So I was I was from now from age seven, I was already working right jumping over elephants and

Jeroen Leenarts: 6:31

well, you do get to see some nice animals as a small

Johan Delgado: 6:35

before because now now you cannot have animals in zoos.

Jeroen Leenarts: 6:39

Oh, yeah, they changed some things about which in the end for the animal welfare. Good thing, I guess?

Johan Delgado: 6:44

I believe so. Yeah. So yeah.

Jeroen Leenarts: 6:48

And I can imagine that if you're if you're a small kid, and you're surrounded by people doing well, to you, it's normal. But for an outsider, it's pretty far out there. That it's very easy to get into the groove there as well and start walking around on your hands and doing crazy stuff yourself. I guess. So. But now we covered the part that you were a circus artist, that you ended up in the US and then moved over to Russia, because of your now wife. And at some point, you got the idea that software development might be something that might interest me. So what's the process there because doing a very physical job being a circus acrobats, to something that is very much focused on doing things with your brains, you know, like working behind a computer, it's like not moving at all just typing. Where did that idea come from?

Johan Delgado: 7:46

It's actually a long, long story, but I'm gonna make this short. Compare, I got my first computer when I was like 22, Jr. So really, a computer world not my specialty, not something that I was I was close to. I remember in college, we got it. No, no, in college in high school, we got one computer for the whole group. So for the whole class. And when we came here, I decided that I want to be a language teacher because I thought I had languages or from from the earlier he had been speaking several languages. And I decided, okay, let me let me do this on courses in the song psychology classes and decided that I'm going to open a language school here. And then a couple of years later, I decided that I wanted to make something for my students to practice. In their spare time, I don't know when they're going in the metro. And then I went in, I started learning unity. And I decided I will, I will go and make a game with Unity. You know, the game engine, right? Yeah. And I ended up making a iOS app. But it wasn't unity. What's an overkill? I know what it was, was something that was it was easy to find materials to learn. And I decided to make that game and put it on the in the iOS store in the Play Store too. And I like it. I like the process. And I like learning. Programming and are starting in there. So so that's when when I started.

Jeroen Leenarts: 9:41

So the first app that you developed was with unity, and it was cross platform. And it was a sort of like a language trainer. Because you were basically scratching your own itch about a by extension for your students. Yeah. That's that's like diving deep, like right away. So how did how well did that happen? How well did it go?

Johan Delgado: 10:04

I know. It was quite quite frustrating. Because every single thing was difficult. But I'm, I'm, I'm very good at learning. So now especially but I'm very good at it. So I'm not afraid to learn new stuff. So I just flew myself on it and tried to get anything, any material that I can, that I could and try to make it happen. So it was frustrating at the beginning, but it was really rewarding when it was already published.

Jeroen Leenarts: 10:38

Okay, cool. And is the app still available or

Johan Delgado: 10:42

still but I haven't. I haven't worked on it. So I think it's outdated, a little bit, I got new stuff in there.

Jeroen Leenarts: 10:51

So just to do small recap, you gave language training, who started the business, on language training, what languages I proficient at.

Johan Delgado: 11:04

Spanish, of course, is my mother tongue. So I was teaching a Spanish I can speak Russian to in Portuguese, but it was a Spanish that I was teaching here. And he was a Spanish is quite popular here. So it was easy to start.

Jeroen Leenarts: 11:21

Okay. And so, it's very interesting, actually, because you come into Russia as a, as a circus artist, then you start a new life with your wife in Russia, in Moscow, I guess. You start a new business, start scratching your own software, ah, and then decide to just basically drop the language training and go software development full time, is that correct?

Johan Delgado: 11:51

More or less? Yeah, I keep playing with, with programming a bit, I was doing my language training, but the programming was something I did on the site. And I didn't thought to myself was something that somebody who can really have a career or have a profession in development, but just for doing stuff for myself and for my students. So the tinder make happen was the pandemic, because when the pandemic started, course, my business went down a little bit. Not a little a lot. Yeah, I lost like half of my student because they, yeah, it was difficult for them. We got shutdowns here and all of that.

Jeroen Leenarts: 12:39

So the best thing that you were doing was one on one training or group,

Johan Delgado: 12:46

group group group training. Yeah, I actually have a smaller school and it's on drones. And people just come to my, to my classes.

Jeroen Leenarts: 12:53

Yeah. And then of course, with the whole Corona thing. There are some restrictions there. People don't want to come

Johan Delgado: 12:59

here in Moscow, they were really, really, really strict. Like you don't you cannot just do it is prohibited. Yeah, it was difficult. So none of the my student just went online because they wanted to continue, but they're not the same thing

Jeroen Leenarts: 13:15

I can imagine. So basically, you You went full time on your focus yourself full time software development, due to external reasons, even though it was something you were doing at that time, in more like a hobby type profession, you know, just because you were just scratching your own itch. So and at what point did you decide okay, this is something that that might be worthwhile to pursue and to make career change out of?

Johan Delgado: 13:45

Yeah, what's happening, what happened was the I, I started again, I started I went to hacking with three friends start learning stuff, because if you look on the internet that the first thing you're gonna find, right, I start learning stuff from it. And then I got into the boot camp to the right when the lib boot camp, and it was really cool because sighs there were there was people in there who like me came from different backgrounds in they weren't like, like, they just started learning programming too. So it was cool to current representation. It gave me some confidence that okay, some some of the people is doing this I can, maybe I can try to to go into it too. And the bootcamp was really cool. We got a little really we got a lot of help in there in we got the basic stack and idea how to continue then after that, I start I started buying books in courses I got from Donnie was had those practical books but combine I get that one like many stuff and start learning and so I started I started building other apps other cannot are not just educational for learning languages in then I decided that okay, I'm too old and four years old, so I decide I'm too old for this. But I already can do it. I can I can I can build stuff in with Swift. So I decided that let's go to Upwork you know, there is a platform where you can be a freelancer and really quick I started getting clients their course I was filtering through the DC stuff, I didn't want to do anything too complicated. I'm from Delhi grow, we grow, I got several clients in there everything went okay. So then I decided, okay, this is my thing I got to do it in my school is I still keep running, but this is now my school is decide.

Jeroen Leenarts: 16:06

Buy it's always good to have multiple tracks of income, especially if you're like not fully, you cannot fully depend on on one or the other at the moment. So that's also something I'm curious about. Because I can imagine that when the lockdowns hit due to Corona, the schools shut down. But did you have like income from software development right away? Or did it take some time? And how did you bridge this period? Because I can imagine it's just having your income fall away that that's I would be like scared? No, I can't say that out loud. But I would be, I would be scared out of my mind, so to speak. Yeah,

Johan Delgado: 16:47

that's a good, that's a good. How do you say that? That's a good push that was cut in half was a good post for you to start. So the learning power, I really went into it. And I started from the beginning and started building stuff. So that really helped me, am I not the person that can learn just by watching or reading, I had to do stuff and, and get frustrated and have that just not working and then try to make a war that really teach me. So today, I went into a really strong because I had fewer students and needed to do something. And that was some I got the the idea that there was something I can do. So yeah, I tried really hard. And the upward thing is because I'd really filter out what to do. So there were there were many proposals, but I was trying not to make not try to get something that I will I will not be able to do so. No, no, it was okay that my first customer was somebody from Spain. So it just was easy from the beginning.

Jeroen Leenarts: 18:02

Yeah, cuz it just having somebody who's a native Spanish speaker, as well really allow us to, like get down to business and share the specifications correctly. Because that's Yeah,

Johan Delgado: 18:12

that's really Academy because, yeah, I got a lot of experience working, because in case somebody who works in Germany in tech bank is not that nickel. Okay. It was really cool.

Jeroen Leenarts: 18:27

But working through Upwork. Is it hard, or because I tried some things through Upwork myself, occasionally, as well. But what I always noticed is that either my rates are too high, or they're just not. They find better candidates, I guess. So what's the what's the deal there? Because I think it's a platform that allows people with a certain profile to really get good jobs, solid pay, and just gain an income. So So what's the deal there? What's your experience? And your thoughts on that?

Johan Delgado: 18:58

Yeah, I think my spirit was positive. But I said, I said that, if you are somebody from a low income country, you can live really easy upward, but it's not know for everyone. And clients can be really difficult. Because I have many, many stories of people that get really awful clients. I was, I was lucky, I think, because the i my first customer was a really, really cool customer. The second was was awesome. So it, I don't know, any I wasn't charging too little. But not too much. But that wasn't charging too little. Okay, so maybe, maybe that Tinder helmet in there was that I have a portfolio up already. So maybe, maybe that that's what got me good clients, and then I don't know. Yeah.

Jeroen Leenarts: 19:49

So and during this period of transition from, like, losing your business, or at least the livelihoods of the language school, to having enough income through your software development skills. Were there any people in this timespan that's that stood out for you? You already mentioned these, these two first customers on Upwork. But were there other people's that's really helped you along that provided guidance or that you would say like, yeah, if they wouldn't have helped me at that point in time, I might be in a very different spot right

Johan Delgado: 20:24

now. Well, I cannot point to just one person but there were many people of course, my wife was very supportive. And I got really, really good support from Paul Hudson. So every time I wrote something to him, he will respond when he when gave me some books for free. So in I will say is more. It was easy because there is a ton of Matt Tom's materials on the web. So too many people in the iOS community just sharing, sharing stuff and it makes it much easier i don't know i tinny, it was a was a was something that needed to happen like, like I didn't I it was necessary to do something. And that was the easiest thing to do. So that's what I did about it many people it's it

Jeroen Leenarts: 21:33

never does sound better. It does sound that your life partner, your wife has provided a vital role in all of this. So how was she during this entire thing? Because I can imagine that she's like, well, pretty concerned as well. If she sees like the income like, yeah, dry up as well. Because,

Johan Delgado: 21:56

yeah, happy a couple of we had some money saved from our past life. So it wasn't really too hard. But but he was obviously we got no future that way. So I needed to do something and she was supportive. She was like, like it, she knew that I wanted to do it. If I want to do something, I will try really hard. And she wasn't she was there for me all the time. So it wasn't really a problem for us.

Jeroen Leenarts: 22:28

Cool. So yeah, and you also mentioned a very important thing that just having some savings, irregardless of how you're currently are situated. It's very important because it's, it can help you through these rough patches that you just described. For us.

Johan Delgado: 22:46

Yeah, without a go kart it will be it will be will have been way more difficult. Because I have data school like what I was working on it, like for 3g or solaray. So we got some some, some money. Some extra money, but not too much. But the problem was the future that we knew the the pandemic was going to be. Long thing is not just something really quick.

Jeroen Leenarts: 23:13

Yeah, I still remember that half year, then it'll be over and then half year pass, isn't it? Yeah, just wait six more months, then it's over? And then six months later? Yeah. Six more months. And yeah, I'm not sure I just make plans and see. Well, that are just future proof. Regardless whether or not we will end up in more lockdowns or not. So yeah, fortunately, as a software developer, we are in a position that we can just really get through these these difficult circumstances. So but you made the switch to iOS development? And if I'm correct, because I had a look at your website, you're now in a permanent role at at a company are you at liberty to share what company you're working on right now?

Johan Delgado: 23:57

Sure. Sure. I work for for kenosis a grocery up they say a grocery business really without 1000s of customers they are in in Russia it was a what the same thing I was I was thinking okay, I'm now a freelancer i gonna do is development liking this platform and that and then I started getting recruiters sending me messages and all of that. And I was always ignoring them because it always says senior developer. And I'm not saying you're not close to the end, I was always in loading Till one day when I got some message from this company and I was using the application because of the pandemic and all of that I was a user of the application and I said okay, I like the application but I know senior because the the message was what to say no the the post in the recorded reply and say the okay in upload and then let's have a conversation. Yeah, and we did that we had the we had a little conversation about soon and she said okay, let me talk to my to the people in the company and then we get back to in like a week later they just call me and tell me Okay, let's have a interview tomorrow. My

Jeroen Leenarts: 25:27

Yeah, when things start moving things start moving faster. That's usually the case.

Johan Delgado: 25:31

Yeah, and I went today the know the Mr. Looking out what how to prepare for an interview because I wasn't really ready to do it. But okay. And I went to the interview In whatsoever, the world's three developers in there, the lead developer and two more developers, they were, were asking me questions about IoT in general. But my answer was always Yeah, I did something like that. And I started explaining what they like, in. It was really cool. I was really nervous. But yeah.

Jeroen Leenarts: 26:08

Being being nervous is never a problem. You as an acrobat should know that. Right? Yeah.

Johan Delgado: 26:13

So it wasn't, it wasn't, it wasn't difficult, actually, I was thinking they will gonna keep me recalibrate against questions.

Jeroen Leenarts: 26:23

But it's good to hear that, that the company you're working at actually had like, a solid interview process that is just looking at candidates and just trying to assess their skills in a match, because that's a very important lesson already. What you're describing right now, because the position that was presented to you was actually for a senior role. Yes. But what I always say to people is that, yeah, but don't look at like, job listings, that you have to like, hit every bullet point, sometimes it's just enough, if it's something that interests you, and just make sure that you think that it's a position that you see yourself, like, either right now or within like, five years. And if you start looking at job positions in that way, then it totally changed the game, because why not? Why not submit on a position? You know, what's the worst that can happen?

Johan Delgado: 27:15

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, I can say that I was like that before, I will not try to post something too tight to get something that say senior before like, now I say that it was just not a good move. From my part.

Jeroen Leenarts: 27:32

Yeah. To zoom in on the interview process a little bit. You said you had an interview with three developers? Yeah. Was it like a single interview? Or was the second was there a second step after that?

Johan Delgado: 27:44

Second one, but the first one was the one that was more technical. They were trying to know to understand if I knew stuff, I knew the stuff that they needed, then anyone really well, because most of the questions I knew stuff about in any Watson like simple stuff they were talking about. Normal stuff that you normally find found in in developmental,

Jeroen Leenarts: 28:12

yeah, just trying to assess, has this person actually opened Xcode sometimes? Does he or she know what a UI view controller is? And do we have some incline on what the lifecycle of an app is stuff like that?

Johan Delgado: 28:24

Yeah, yeah, stuff like that. And also, they, I, I have some apps on GitHub. One that is open source source that I did on the bootcamp and they were they open the app, and we were talking about it

Jeroen Leenarts: 28:40

was really helpful. That's a good one, actually. Because that that met that allows you to skip a second step in an interview process, quite often, because often companies, they ask you to do a take home project, and then they just want you to write code, and then they interview you on your code to see if you've actually written that code. But if you have like a project or code available on GitHub, there's already code that you claim that you have written. So and then an interview, you can quite easily assess whether or not somebody has actually written that code or not. And that, yeah, it's real. It's real benefit if you're in the job market. So then, okay, then the interview was over. They said, Yeah, we'll call you back. Then what happens?

Johan Delgado: 29:26

Then, okay, they won't call me back. And then, like, three days, after that, they say, Okay, well, you had to meet the CTO, do another interview. And then I went, I went to the interview, there was those guys and in the CTO in the recruiter and some other people, and they start doing more general questions about myself what I want to do what I want, what I want from this company from this role, and stuff like that, when they say,

Jeroen Leenarts: 29:59

really the personality check whether or not you fit with the company, and the company fits with you.

Johan Delgado: 30:05

And there was something good that I really connect with the with the first three guys that did the interview with me. So we got some, some some I was talking a lot in there and we got some stuff in common. So it was they laid the record, the record told me that they want you from the first interview, they like your personality, but they want the CTO to understand if you are somebody that can fit our company,

Jeroen Leenarts: 30:34

and are you now working everyday with these three developers. Yeah,

Johan Delgado: 30:38

yeah, yeah, they are my my. My closest team, yeah, we got the big big thing but they are my closest

Jeroen Leenarts: 30:45

that's really nice because then you actually that then you have like more of an implant where you end up when once you sign up with the company. So and then you end up at your first job. I reckon that you're thinking, Okay, first job software development. Now what's going to happen? So how was the onboarding process for you as a as a first time?

Johan Delgado: 31:06

I was, I was really worried. Because okay, I'm clear already got it. Okay, is this really cool, but what now, the onboarding was, they gave me some tasks to do. Yeah, I cannot say the kind of the specific barriers, it was something not really difficult to do. But it was big, you had to go into the code base and try stuff. And I had one developer that was giving me tips and that he are in there. But we work remotely. So we was. So we won't work in the office because of COVID Leonardo da. So it was a little bit daunting. At the beginning, I got really lost many places. But I was able to do it in got really good tips from the developers. That gave me a general idea of how they were but our app is really big. And it's difficult to know,

Jeroen Leenarts: 32:12

you mentioned that they gave you some work was it like more like bug fixing or small feature development.

Johan Delgado: 32:17

They wanted to remote son, son, a specific library, and they wanted to have it in, in native code.

Jeroen Leenarts: 32:28

But that's what you're describing is already like, it's a good first task for a new team member. Because just either removing something from the code base or fixing some bugs, it's really, it's a constrained task, it's very clear where your boundaries are. But you get to touch a lot of things within the code base, which is always good, because that allows you to ask a lot of questions, basically. But was it really like you asking questions, or your team members checking in with you how you were doing?

Johan Delgado: 32:55

They will check but not not much. They will check. But yeah, no, no matter what made asking questions, because I'm really used to it. And I know that if I don't understand what I'm doing this better to go and get someone, someone else who had more and more contests in their head.

Jeroen Leenarts: 33:11

That's one thing I always say to new team members is always Yeah, if you're if you're stuck on something for like, five or 10 minutes, don't stay stuck on it for an hour, just call me and and ask a question and ask me maybe maybe just asked me for help. And let's have a look together because I might try to have somebody unstuck and learning, then somebody's getting frustrated. And yeah,

Johan Delgado: 33:34

and you have to understand like you are new to the app, and you don't have really the compass, you don't understand how everything works in general. So it's really easy to get stuck to ask questions.

Jeroen Leenarts: 33:48

And you already have like features in the app in production and that you can take out of the phone and just go to some screen and say yeah, hey, I created that.

Johan Delgado: 33:57

Now's like the two months I got mail your stuff in that is really cool. Okay, that that I did it and it's working cool.

Jeroen Leenarts: 34:07

And so did you show it to people like close to you your wife or friends? Oh, of

Johan Delgado: 34:14

course not to say that I did. And he said grocery up so many people around me use it. So my wife always soccer friends is used in the theater. Oh, my husband worked for it my stuff.

Jeroen Leenarts: 34:32

And that's really cool. Because just just being able to to make such a big change in your in your in your work life and then being successful. Before we started recording, you actually mentioned that you wouldn't mind just showcasing your journey to just show people that it is possible. And so what are some of the tips that you could give people based on your own experience?

Johan Delgado: 34:59

Okay, based on my experience number one is don't put limits on yourself. Like I was always thinking that I won't be able to do or not call them from LA ah, I'm Yeah, I not do maybe not won't be able to be a developer because I know John and none of that. But really put yourself out there and like you said they will decide if you are good enough for them or not. And you never know like I got that job and I was oh my god and it wasn't like they will pay me pay me a little bit thing get me like a simple Junior No, no, they really brought me in like another month. The thing, so you had to put yourself out there, Bill built stuff, like the most thing that I think was helpful for me was that from the beginning I was building I was doing stuff I was, I know it's difficult, it's really easy to get, especially if you try to make something too complicated. If you see my apps, they are not simple, but not super complicated. I was able to do them in every time I was doing something more, a little bit more complicated. So building stuff is cool. And put it put publishing don't just not in your computer. So every somebody else will say, and I will say the honor to know that you don't have to know everything that I was, I wasn't really applying for jobs, because I was thinking that I really need to learn way more than I know, before applying. And if any, from my experience is not like that, it's like you go you apply, you get a job, and you start learning a lot in the in the in the job. No doubt you will be learning all the time. That that is.

Jeroen Leenarts: 37:04

That's one of the best parts of being a software developer, but also one of the pitfalls of being a software developer. So just to recap a little bit, you were 22. When you got your hands on your first computer, if I remember correctly, you're now I think you mentioned 40 years old already. So when did you write your first line of code?

Johan Delgado: 37:24

It was when I did that application for my students. So that's where that was three years ago. Yeah, yeah. That was like three years ago. Yeah. So

Jeroen Leenarts: 37:36

that's three years ago, you basically started a new hobby with, I don't know, something with apps. And then a bit like pandemic driven. You, you you made the jump into full time software development, because at the start of the pandemic, you really committed yourself to having to find another source of income. And it's worked out for you. Yeah, yeah. That's amazing. Wonderful. So and also very interesting. And it's right in line with what you just said there that you don't have to do software development from like age 14, and just be like some whiskey or anything, just be committed, and keep at it, and persevere and try and find these people that can give you a helping hand with some information or some free books like Paul Hudson did, or just somebody who who's willing to give you some of their own time to like to provide some guidance. That's, that's one of the best things that I think can happen. And yeah, it's also totally awesome that where you're working right now that the way that they do their interviews, if I think that's that should be an example of how people do interviews in in companies, it's like completely focused on the human being at the other end of the table. And not just some, you know, some some tech interview that has you jumping through all kinds of algorithm hoops, stuff that you forget immediately, again, once you learned it, and that you'll never use in the day to day unless you work at Google or something. So yeah, that's really cool, Johan, um, is there anything that we've forgotten?

Johan Delgado: 39:13

Right To Work With it really well? We'll talk about a lot of stuff in. We give people some something to chew on.

Jeroen Leenarts: 39:26

Yeah, well, what I will do, I will make sure that your websites and some of the things that we've mentioned that are linked from my show notes, and I think it's a really cool story that you were able was able to share with with me or with us, I should say, and I look forward to see what else you're going to do in your in your newfound career. And I think I think your family, your wife really can agree with you as well. Because when you're talking about software development, you really look like you're enjoying what you're doing. And that's always good if you have a life partner and that they can see that their partner is enjoying their day to day work as well, besides being with her or him.

Johan Delgado: 40:11

That's really cool. And I had to grateful because he was so so much important for helping me do something that I really wanted to do.

Jeroen Leenarts: 40:25

Okay. Well, John, thanks for time and talk to you again soon.

Johan Delgado: 40:31

Thank you very much.