Josh Holtz about his Do iOS talk: Become a Shipshape Shipping Engineer

Josh Holtz is back on my podcast to talk about his talk for Do iOS.

Join me in Amsterdam for Do iOS 2025, tickets and details available now.

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Transcript

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Jeroen: 1:11

Hi and welcome to another Doocy special edition of my podcast. It's like special, super special, extra special. But this is like even more special than that because we got Josh Holtz on again. I think Josh has been like the most frequent guest on my podcast. It's also been the episodes. I had to do the most editing afterwards because we're just going left to right and everywhere, which is fine, which is always fun.But then you get to editing and then it's still fun, but a little bit less so. Josh Welcome. Great to have you again. And the best part is we're going to meet face to face again in November in Amsterdam for 2 hours with you on stage and doing presentation. So hi, how are you doing today?

Josh: 1:55

Eh? I am doing great. It's great to be here

Jeroen: 1:57

Oh,

Josh: 1:57

for it. Yeah. I think the fifth time, fourth, fifth time, maybe sixth,

Jeroen: 2:04

I've

Josh: 2:04

I don't know. Debatable.

Jeroen: 2:05

we did a few panels and a few recordings and,

Josh: 2:07

Yeah,

Jeroen: 2:07

I don't know,

Josh: 2:08

so

Jeroen: 2:08

it's like,

Josh: 2:09

and at least six. But, you know, I'm super excited to be here and super excited to be at the IOC this upcoming November because I really wanted to go last

Jeroen: 2:19

yeah,

Josh: 2:19

November, but my daughter was like two months old, so I couldn't really make the trip. But now she's pretty self-sufficient at 1011 months. So

Jeroen: 2:29

I

Josh: 2:29

I can

Jeroen: 2:30

see.

Josh: 2:31

I can

Jeroen: 2:31

She's

Josh: 2:31

leave for a few

Jeroen: 2:31

not

Josh: 2:32

days

Jeroen: 2:32

making

Josh: 2:32

now.

Jeroen: 2:32

her own breakfast yet, so she's

Josh: 2:35

She can

Jeroen: 2:35

not

Josh: 2:35

find

Jeroen: 2:35

making her

Josh: 2:35

it,

Jeroen: 2:35

own

Josh: 2:35

though.

Jeroen: 2:35

breakfast yet.

Josh: 2:36

She can find it,

Jeroen: 2:36

Oh, that's cool. So, yeah, last year it didn't work out, but there was. We kind of were expecting that. Um, but this year we actually there's a little known thing about the specific dates that we picked for do was and that's actually because you indicated if you put it on those dates, then I can make it so. And I was like, Well, let's check with the venue. And the venue had to availability. So okay, we'll pick those dates then just to make sure that Josh would be able to join

Josh: 3:10

but

Jeroen: 3:11

the conference this year. So no pressure

Josh: 3:13

makes me

Jeroen: 3:13

there.

Josh: 3:13

feel so good.

Jeroen: 3:14

Um, but it's, but it's also part of this weird thing that you going to do, like in the second half of this year, right? Because if that's still happening, the,

Josh: 3:23

No.

Jeroen: 3:23

the conference

Josh: 3:24

Oh,

Jeroen: 3:24

trips that are like chained together or not

Josh: 3:26

no. It actually is not happening anymore. So BackStory

Jeroen: 3:31

uh

Josh: 3:31

is a few months ago I got asked to speak at a conference in Taipei, and that was going to be the Sunday, the Saturday and Sunday before to iOS. And I was like, Well, I'm already out of the house. I might as well make a trip to Amsterdam, just go all the way around the world. It turned out, you know, as you do, planning a conference is hard and sometimes things don't work out due to logistics that are unforeseen. So I found out probably like a month ago that that conference has actually got cancelled. So I well, I know I'm, I was super sat on a speaker standpoint because I was looking forward to going to that side of the world and exploring. I was sad because I was going to go make an entire world trip. I was gonna go all the way around the world, which would have been super cool. But and from a conference hosting viewpoint, like, I can't imagine planning for months and then just having my conference, like, not happen. So, like, my heart goes out to them. Hopefully they can figure it out and spit it back up again. But now I get to focus more on my talk for new iOS, so I'm not giving two in one week. So this talk should be even better, hopefully. And then I'm also away from home for a short amount of time, which will be good for the kids and my wife.

Jeroen: 4:54

yeah, Yeah. They'll. They'll they'll. They'll keep their sanity just that bit more.

Josh: 4:58

Yes. Yeah.

Jeroen: 5:00

Yeah, I know how it is, because I've. I've did some some trips last year as well, and I don't know what agreements you have in place with your wife, but with, with our home front, it's really like, okay, you're the one leaving, which is fine, but you do need to take care of all the arrangements that need to be made to make sure that the activities in and around the house and school, that they just can proceed as planned. So that's basically me calling up parents and mother in laws and everybody that's like available. Hey, can you take this trip by car and can you, like, bring my kids on that day to that

Josh: 5:34

Yeah.

Jeroen: 5:35

event and okay, can you collect them from school? And it's it's like this entire spreadsheet for like maybe like five days that's like six or seven people on it just to make sure that all the arrangements are kept and that the kids can just live their life as much as normal. As much as it's normal that when when

Josh: 5:52

Yeah,

Jeroen: 5:52

one of the parents is not home, but it works

Josh: 5:56

yeah. We don't have

Jeroen: 5:57

and

Josh: 5:57

that

Jeroen: 5:57

it's

Josh: 5:57

kind

Jeroen: 5:57

a lot

Josh: 5:57

of

Jeroen: 5:57

of

Josh: 5:57

schedule

Jeroen: 5:57

fun.

Josh: 5:57

yet because the kids are two and a half and almost 11 months, so they don't really have places to go.

Jeroen: 6:04

Yeah,

Josh: 6:04

So it's

Jeroen: 6:05

well,

Josh: 6:05

really just seeing if if the grandparents can come spend most of the days here

Jeroen: 6:10

yeah,

Josh: 6:10

in case she has to do work stuff, go out of the house for a bit or something.

Jeroen: 6:15

yeah,

Josh: 6:16

But

Jeroen: 6:16

yeah.

Josh: 6:16

when the kids do have schooling activities, I can't imagine trying to to schedule all that. That sounds that sounds so hard.

Jeroen: 6:23

Well, basically the two kids, as far as their they go to school out of town, so that's, uh, that's half an hour drive. So that's already a challenge. And we do that with a carpool with, uh, three, with three families in total. So we bring each of those kids there. Um, but also, um, my daughter, uh, she's kind of active on her eight years old in, in sports, so she's, uh, she's going to, uh, practice and training for like five times a week, which is four of those are in some national center, which is like an hour's drive from our home. So it's we

Josh: 7:02

Goo.

Jeroen: 7:03

basically it was like, Yeah, well, let's get an electric car. Just, you know, it's like for the environment

Josh: 7:08

Hee

Jeroen: 7:08

and it's a

Josh: 7:09

hee.

Jeroen: 7:09

little bit cheaper

Josh: 7:09

Yeah.

Jeroen: 7:09

and, and my wife and I like, uh, we're like, uh, well, we're, well, we're pretty relieved that we have an electric car right now. It's, it's a bit of a hassle to charging and everything, but just the difference in cost per kilometre, It's, it's, it's like it's worth it for us, for real because we're spending like tons of money just like on, uh, on, on transit, uh, for the, for the kids. But,

Josh: 7:36

I should probably

Jeroen: 7:37

but

Josh: 7:38

also

Jeroen: 7:38

you can imagine

Josh: 7:38

like.

Jeroen: 7:38

that that would take but

Josh: 7:39

Yeah, I should probably look into investing

Jeroen: 7:41

yeah,

Josh: 7:41

in one too for when the kids go places. Like I said, they don't go anywhere. Right now. There are weeks where I don't leave the house, so

Jeroen: 7:47

yeah,

Josh: 7:47

we're pretty good on like gas cars and environment from that standpoint. But when

Jeroen: 7:53

yeah.

Josh: 7:53

they're busy.

Jeroen: 7:54

No

Josh: 7:54

Yeah

Jeroen: 7:54

I won't.

Josh: 7:54

I, I can imagine probably getting something a little bit more environment friendly.

Jeroen: 8:00

Yeah, exactly. So we're looking into solar panels and everything here,

Josh: 8:03

Yeah.

Jeroen: 8:04

so

Josh: 8:04

Yeah.

Jeroen: 8:05

but that's not about a conference and definitely

Josh: 8:07

Oh that's

Jeroen: 8:07

not

Josh: 8:07

right.

Jeroen: 8:07

about your talk. Yeah. Yeah, we were like. We were, like, carrying

Josh: 8:10

I already

Jeroen: 8:11

away on some topic again, some tangent, but your, um, your topic for your talk is kind of an interesting story as well because there have been a few ideas that had been floating around over the months since I ask if you would be a part of do I was.

Josh: 8:27

right.

Jeroen: 8:27

So what can you tell about that?

Josh: 8:30

Yeah. So I, I've been trying to figure out like what kind of talks that I want to give, what kind of excites me these days. And like I'm of course like pretty active in the Iowa and Swift World, but I don't necessarily do a lot of iOS and Swift these days. Mainly

Jeroen: 8:49

That's

Josh: 8:49

my

Jeroen: 8:49

like overt pun that you made there,

Josh: 8:50

it it is. It is, yes, that's true. So like a lot of my day job is doing a lot of different cross-platform things right now. I've been doing back end for a while, some front end. But I was try to figure out like, like, like what, what what contact I could give that would resonate with Swift and iOS developers. And when we were talking, I was like, Well, I could still do like CI automation stuff, but I've kind of done that before and I want to do something different. So like I'm pretty active in the indie world as well. I'm not a successful indie. I think I'm like net negative on costs probably. So I couldn't really give a talk on how to be like, like have an indie business. But I realize, like I do, I do ship a lot of things. So my talk title is Become a Ship shape shipping engineer. I' said that wrong so many times already and I realize like, I'm I'm not I'm not really an iOS engineer, I'm not a mobile engineer. I don't even know if I'm an engineer. I just like to ship things that I make or others help build. And then I can help like ship that out the door. And I've been shipping things for goodness. What year are we in? 23, almost 20 years now. Like I started development 20 years ago and I've been shipping all my side projects which have been going back in the day of Visual Basic things or stuff in PHP or like some sort of games, mobile apps, whatever it is. And like there's, there's an art to shipping there. Like it's, it's more than just an end process if you want to build right? It includes like shipping correctly and there's a lot of ways to make that easier and more fun where it's not just this last minute thing that just seems like an annoying step. So there's talk that the goal is to hopefully inspire people to actually ship things sooner and faster with higher quality and give them tips to actually like do it fine and successfully.

Jeroen: 11:00

Okay. So it's it's sort of like a a business type talk, but then the business of making sure that you put your stuff out there.

Josh: 11:11

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It should. It should relate to indie developers, people with just side projects. But I'm also going to give like things on how to on how to help ship during your like official day job as well. So like things that you can do even if you aren't into the indie scene or side project scene that can help you ship. So I'm hoping it'll be like a very generalized topic, but something that can kind of be inspiring, but also a little techie but not too techie. So it's definitely going to relate more towards like the Indian idea or the indie iOS kind of side. But any topics should hopefully relate to any sort of developer.

Jeroen: 11:53

Oh, definitely. And I'm mostly curious about, like, what's the process for you in the sense of, like, I know that every time before you ship something, it's it's your basic message on some social platform that you ask, like, Hey, I've got this and this. And the you've hinted about that specific product and a few times over already, and then it's basically a question, should I ship it? Yeah. Question mark. And then everybody responds with, yeah, ship it or some, some form of that. But why do you actually make those social posts to say like, Hey, should I ship it or not?

Josh: 12:30

Yeah. So that one is a little bit selfish for me to do that. And I like having that external pressure. I'm not really looking for like validation in what I ship because I usually build and ship things because it is it's more fun for me to just get my ideas out there, share, even if it's like not super useful, mean even if it's not going to like, sell anything. Just like seeing, seeing people's reactions to whatever it is I ship and then like them possibly asking me in the future about when it's going to come out, kind of keeps keeps the pressure on me and the fun to kind of actually like continue through with creating the thing.

Jeroen: 13:14

Uh, okay. So there is that there's like a process happening there and also something that, you know, if yourself that will help you stay on track

Josh: 13:22

Yeah.

Jeroen: 13:22

right.

Josh: 13:23

Yep. Yeah. I'm

Jeroen: 13:24

Okay.

Josh: 13:24

more yeah. Like, if I would do something alone quietly, like, yeah, I'll ship it. But like, it's not, it's not as fun. You don't have like that anticipation of and that excitement to get to the point full of people to already know that you're going to ship something when it's out. So it's just a fun little tease kind of thing.

Jeroen: 13:45

And just out of curiosity, because I know socials is important for that aspect of your shipping process, what's it been like? Like, all the all the all the changes that have been happening on social platform platforms and, you know, that's all of a sudden we're dealing with something called X instead of Twitter and, uh, threats launched. And I'm not even sure if it's if it's a success or not. And Mastodon is a thing and Blue Sky is like, can't get in there. It's

Josh: 14:15

I forgot about that one.

Jeroen: 14:16

What are your thoughts

Josh: 14:17

I might

Jeroen: 14:17

on

Josh: 14:17

have

Jeroen: 14:17

that

Josh: 14:17

an

Jeroen: 14:17

and

Josh: 14:17

invite

Jeroen: 14:17

what, what

Josh: 14:17

for you, actually, bu.

Jeroen: 14:20

And I got mine today but I'd like

Josh: 14:22

Okay,

Jeroen: 14:22

I'd open it up and it's like, okay, this

Josh: 14:24

I

Jeroen: 14:24

timeline is empty, so I'll close it again.

Josh: 14:27

Yeah, it's it is. It is really different. So I've been. I've been shipped like an actual new app since any of this has happened, which I would say was, would probably be then probably be like what, September, October ish of last year when things started to get weird. But I did ship a conference since then, same kind of vibe. But like when well, when planning deep dive swift it was pre Ellen buying Twitter so like I. I knew I had like the Twitter community Twitter Twitter to like sell deep dish and I had a bunch of confidence for that And then when Ellen bought Twitter I was like what is going to like, what's going to happen like that? Like it could die? And like, that's kind of what I was planning on. And yeah, it was it was really scary. But so I end up looking into things, so I end up searching, not searching over. I became more active in Mastodon and then trying to find other communities to make sure that I have more than just one stream to like see whatever I'm doing on. So like Different Slack's Discord's and trying to also find like a tighter, a tighter community of like group of friends and talk to as well. Just because only relying on Twitter was actually kind of scary. So I think right now as it stands, I think I'd probably feel comfortable shipping again with socials. Twitter is probably still weird because like there's a new timeline logic. I feel like we're like a lot of my tweets aren't getting as much exposure as they used to, but like, Mastodon has a ton of exposure and can actually I almost get more interactions quickly on Mastodon now, and I haven't figured out threads yet. I need a desktop app in order to properly use threads. I hate using my phone so but yeah, I think I think now instead of relying on Twitter to blow up, I'm also going to try and rely on like smaller individual communities, even if they are on Twitter or on Mastodon or in a discord. But

Jeroen: 16:41

Yeah,

Josh: 16:42

it almost feels like it's going to be more of like a word of mouth thing instead of just like a viral Twitter thing, which is actually probably better in the long run because you're it's less about the initial hype and more about customers and people that actually want to use whatever you're creating.

Jeroen: 16:56

yeah, yeah. Because that's that's also one of the things that I'm, like, really conscious about with, with due, I was just like how I'm, how my reaching people and how do I actually get some interested to consider travelling to, to Amsterdam because the ticket price itself is probably the lowest cost part of the entire trip to Amsterdam because it has flights and falls, hotels, food and transfer and everything else. I like, Yeah, so how do you convince people to actually do that? And fortunately thus far tickets have been going well for do I was but uh, yeah, compared to how it used to be with Twitter, it was, it was like easy. You just put something on there and if you hit up the right people, then it just got spread around like, uh, like an oil stain really. And that's not happening nowadays. Sometimes it is with, with some tweets and it's like, so what, what, what made that this thing actually got picked up and that's the other thing which basically has the same parameters is not being picked up. And that's that's, that's a that's one of the hardest things for me is, you know, the the predictability of the results of what you are doing is like much more hit and miss nowadays. And socials was always hit or miss. But now it's like even even while they're the difference on, on, on how to be successful and basically attract attention to to what you're doing.

Josh: 18:23

Yeah. I

Jeroen: 18:23

Fortunately,

Josh: 18:23

feel like,

Jeroen: 18:24

I have like

Josh: 18:26

oh,

Jeroen: 18:26

I go ahead

Josh: 18:26

you know, you're not your first.

Jeroen: 18:28

now so fortunately I had like a mailing list of like previous editions and you know, the, the some communities that you're a part of to just at least get like the bootstrap going, you know, like the initial ticket sales. But yeah, how do you motivate people to, to, to spread the message and to just to basically people telling their their friends and colleagues and, and, and people they meet in their, uh, developer circles that, that there, there's this conference that is like of interest to go to. And I noticed the same challenges with other conference organizers in, in and around Europe as well. It's like people are really figuring out how to, how to get like the reach back where to watch people. And and I think that's also part of why compared to other years ticket sales has been um has been different this year because it's it's it's tickets are going they're trickling in and in a good pace but it's not that you can really tie like big boosts in ticket sales to specific things that you did It's like you're there could be a because I went went on vacation with my family, uh, during the summer and during midsummer, there was all of a sudden it was like a day that for some reason, like a healthy amount of tickets were sold. And I was like, What the heck happened that people were actually buying tickets on this specific day? And it used to be like, okay, I posted this and this

Josh: 19:54

Yeah,

Jeroen: 19:54

and it needs some lead time. And then

Josh: 19:55

I

Jeroen: 19:55

like

Josh: 19:55

had

Jeroen: 19:55

in like 12 to 24 hours you sell tickets and it's like,

Josh: 19:59

I

Jeroen: 19:59

I

Josh: 19:59

had a deep

Jeroen: 19:59

don't know,

Josh: 19:59

dish day

Jeroen: 20:00

it's

Josh: 20:00

like that too, where it was just, I don't know where like 15 tickets were sold. And I'm like, I didn't,

Jeroen: 20:04

yeah,

Josh: 20:05

I didn't post anything. And like,

Jeroen: 20:06

yeah,

Josh: 20:06

having markets that, like, aren't on social media makes it really

Jeroen: 20:10

yeah,

Josh: 20:11

hard to figure out where those came from. And

Jeroen: 20:13

yeah,

Josh: 20:13

like, I was like, okay, I did. I could put in a slack somewhere or like, what? What happened? No idea. I don't know.

Jeroen: 20:21

yeah, yeah. A that's then, that's, that's really because you basically want to repeat

Josh: 20:25

Mm

Jeroen: 20:25

that effect so you want to know what triggered

Josh: 20:27

hmm.

Jeroen: 20:27

it. But yeah, we, if we, we could always buy a crystal ball and hope for the best. But that, but it, I think it does show because you're a conference organizer as well that conference organizing compared to just being a speaker or attendee it's so different because you're at the other end of the entire process because a conference for most people it's like a thing of like a day, a few days if you're a speaker, it's like a preparation of a couple of weeks beforehand maybe. I know speakers who are just basically winging it like two days before, which is fine as well if to do a good talk. But

Josh: 21:03

Are

Jeroen: 21:03

as

Josh: 21:03

you looking

Jeroen: 21:03

an organizer

Josh: 21:03

at me?

Jeroen: 21:04

you're

Josh: 21:04

Because

Jeroen: 21:04

like,

Josh: 21:04

I feel like. I feel. I feel like that's what I do. Not this

Jeroen: 21:09

Hello?

Josh: 21:09

time, though. That's gonna be a different

Jeroen: 21:10

No,

Josh: 21:10

one.

Jeroen: 21:10

no, I've tried it in both ways, but both have their benefits and drawbacks. But as a conference organizer, you're busy with this thing for, for months on end. Really. And it's like you, you wake up with it, you go to bed with it. Well, not literally, but you you. It's next to thinking. What you want to have for breakfast is probably one of the first things that you think about after you thought about your family and and like agenda for the day. But it's this thing that's constantly in the back of your mind

Josh: 21:40

Now, you.

Jeroen: 21:40

that you think, okay, how how's it going? How's it, how is it developing? What can I do to improve the results of this thing?

Josh: 21:47

You. I mean, I don't even remember deep dish even happening. Like what? It's. It's such a weird feeling, like there is so

Jeroen: 21:54

Yeah,

Josh: 21:54

much planning and so much going into it. And then I was just like, on for, like, four or five days in a row while it was happening. Like the, the two days before it and three days of it. And then like all of a sudden, like, it's, it's over. And like I, I couldn't, I couldn't believe that it actually happened. And it's like it was it was still so, so much fun, so much worth like it just worth planning it all. But I'm like, I don't remember going to a conference, but one of the cool things was the Swift. Swift CEO invited me over there to Toronto this past weekend. While I know what date is this past weekend because like I organized Deep Dish and he wanted me to like actually enjoy conference and experience it. And it honestly felt so magical, like knowing all the work going into a conference and like going into speaking and just going as an attendee now, like just so much more appreciation for just everything involved.

Jeroen: 23:02

yeah,

Josh: 23:02

It's it's insane.

Jeroen: 23:03

yeah. And it's, it's, it's. And I do find it enjoyable, but I do remember like, do I was 20 or 22 happened and I was like, you know, the day after I basically slept in for a few hours and then I woke up and like the first thing that I felt was like, Well, glad that's over. I'm never doing this again. But then as days goes by, it's like you re you look back on it and you get like the feedback from people that, that, that really enjoyed it. And apparently I told a couple of very good that jokes on stage I can't remember

Josh: 23:35

Now,

Jeroen: 23:35

that

Josh: 23:36

I got

Jeroen: 23:36

so

Josh: 23:36

to pay

Jeroen: 23:36

because

Josh: 23:36

attention

Jeroen: 23:37

for

Josh: 23:37

this

Jeroen: 23:37

weeks

Josh: 23:37

year.

Jeroen: 23:37

afterwards for four weeks afterwards I got like these these messages on Twitter DMS that were like, Hey, man, I got like this good joke for you for next year. And it was like some really good ones, but also some really silly

Josh: 23:50

Yeah,

Jeroen: 23:50

jokes that it was like, Oh, come on, what did I do? What did

Josh: 23:53

yeah,

Jeroen: 23:53

they get myself into? They're on stage,

Josh: 23:54

yeah,

Jeroen: 23:55

but

Josh: 23:55

I.

Jeroen: 23:55

so

Josh: 23:55

I don't

Jeroen: 23:56

just,

Josh: 23:56

know if I, if I told any jokes or anything, but, like, yeah, I remember being like, at the conference, but I remember like a few days for a few days afterwards, I had this depressing feeling of like, missing being on stage, like I was on stage emceeing for three days straight. And then I came back home and I'm, I just, I was like, I need I need to be on stage again. Like, I was like, I need to do this again because I just I just missed that feeling. And it was weird. Like, I don't I don't remember being on stage, but I, I remember the feeling of being on stage and missing that.

Jeroen: 24:29

Yeah, yeah. Well, I like the aspects of being on stage, and that's true because it's, it's, and I don't know what it is, but it's like, uh, in some way it's, it's, it's interesting because the moment that you're on stage and talking, it's like, uh, it's like, it's sort of like a proud feeling. It's like you're standing there like. Like, wow, I, I actually did something that caused all these people to be in the single room with all the lights here. And, like, I'm talking. And in, like, a few minutes, somebody that I'm introducing right now will actually do a presentation and hopefully they'll do a good job. And it's like, it's a great thing. But then yeah, and to, to help me out a little bit this year I, I asked the a good friend of the Irish developer community to uh, to help me out on stage and to be a co-host with me actually. And that's Daniel Steinberg.

Josh: 25:27

Oh,

Jeroen: 25:27

He's

Josh: 25:27

I didn't see

Jeroen: 25:28

graciously

Josh: 25:28

that. That's exciting.

Jeroen: 25:28

accepted. Yeah,

Josh: 25:30

Yeah,

Jeroen: 25:30

Yeah, I,

Josh: 25:30

I saw, um. I saw Matt Swift, Toronto, and I didn't get a chance to talk to him enough, so

Jeroen: 25:36

yeah,

Josh: 25:37

this'll be good. I'll see him for two, three, two or three days. Something like that. Right. You have a workshop and then two days of talks. So three,

Jeroen: 25:45

that, um, so the,

Josh: 25:47

three

Jeroen: 25:47

the

Josh: 25:47

days.

Jeroen: 25:47

conference is two days and

Josh: 25:48

Yeah. So we're.

Jeroen: 25:50

I've got a workshop the day before with Donnie Walsh,

Josh: 25:52

Yeah, yeah.

Jeroen: 25:53

and I'm almost at the point that I am because I'm, I'm pretty far, uh, developed on that concept with, uh, with Daniel. But once Donnie hits enough participants in his workshop, it's very likely that, uh, that that, that Daniel will also be presented as a workshop host. Yeah. So I'm like, lookin, yeah, I'm looking into that. And it's, it's a way to like, make the trip worthwhile for him as well. And I don't know, he just loves doing workshops, it seems. It's like if it was like I asked to be on stage and he was like, I can I do a workshop as well? I'm like, I, I've made some promises to, to Donnie Wall, so I want to make sure that he's successful first and then we can talk because it's the thing with, with workshops, it's, it's a lot of work for the person doing it and, and they, they, they, they've got like a full day ahead of them just doing a presentation of 1 hours. For some people that's difficult. Imagine having to do the same thing for like four or 5 hours and supports people who start working on the information that you gave them during a presentation.

Josh: 27:08

I've all. I've only given one workshop before. It was Fastlane one at all. Conf 2018, I think

Jeroen: 27:20

Yeah,

Josh: 27:21

it was

Jeroen: 27:21

Must

Josh: 27:21

a

Jeroen: 27:21

have been

Josh: 27:21

two

Jeroen: 27:21

intense,

Josh: 27:21

hour,

Jeroen: 27:22

right?

Josh: 27:22

two hour workshop. There were like, oh goodness, they applied like 50 people in there. So

Jeroen: 27:28

Yeah.

Josh: 27:29

and it was, it was weird cause like with Fast Lane, like I couldn't give like a workshop where everybody had to like, follow the same kind of project, but it was essentially like everybody was implementing whatever I did with Fast Lane in their own project, which was kind of cool. So but yeah, it was, it was, it was exhausting fun but exhausting way, way different than, than giving a talk on

Jeroen: 27:51

yeah, yeah. And the the plan for the conferences. Then after the workshop, that's a small setting. Uh, so, uh, if your workshop participant, you will have the enjoyment of a few drinks afterwards in the venue, probably on the rooftop. If the weather is good enough and it's in a glass. Um, I don't know what it's. It's a glass box, but it has a specific name. Keep forgetting the English name,

Josh: 28:15

uh,

Jeroen: 28:15

but it's, um.

Josh: 28:18

I can't

Jeroen: 28:18

It's

Josh: 28:18

think

Jeroen: 28:18

not.

Josh: 28:18

of

Jeroen: 28:18

It's

Josh: 28:19

words.

Jeroen: 28:19

not a porch. But the other thing, it's. It's closed off, so you're not

Josh: 28:22

Yeah,

Jeroen: 28:22

in the winds and the weather,

Josh: 28:24

the words.

Jeroen: 28:24

and then

Josh: 28:24

They're

Jeroen: 28:25

the next

Josh: 28:25

the words.

Jeroen: 28:25

day.

Josh: 28:25

They're I

Jeroen: 28:26

Yeah,

Josh: 28:26

Yeah.

Jeroen: 28:26

it's summer. And then the next day, that's conference day one. So

Josh: 28:30

Mm

Jeroen: 28:30

if you have a conference and that's when your experience starts, people come in, it's like seven talks, then there's drinks and then there's a walking dinner, uh, into the evening to and at last, till like eight or nine in the evening, probably a few people will be departing and going home a little bit earlier. And then the next day it's conference day two and then it's again seven talks. And then I'm not planning on any big events on the second evening because my experience is people going to a conference at the end of the final day. Some are even already like, uh, dragging their bags around and maybe even leaving a tree to catch the plane. So I didn't want to, like, have something on the schedule that would give people the feeling that they were missing out

Josh: 29:15

Give it

Jeroen: 29:15

if

Josh: 29:15

a more

Jeroen: 29:15

they didn't stay

Josh: 29:16

organic

Jeroen: 29:16

to the last.

Josh: 29:17

event planning kind of thing.

Jeroen: 29:18

Yeah, exactly.

Josh: 29:19

Yeah.

Jeroen: 29:20

And just have plenty of time between talks to, to, to allow people to to to mingle, really. And but that's one thing that we haven't touched upon in in our conversation does for him because we've been like going left and right and various

Josh: 29:34

Oh, yeah.

Jeroen: 29:34

topics. Um, because uh, the fun thing is that due to uh, your being a part of do, I was also one of the sponsors of do I was uh, got involved. I think it went in that order. Um, and revenue card is actually sponsoring do I was this year and

Josh: 29:55

Yes.

Jeroen: 29:55

I specifically wanted to mention that because they're one of the sponsors that actually makes it possible for me to, to run this event even, um,

Josh: 30:02

Makes me

Jeroen: 30:02

because

Josh: 30:02

so

Jeroen: 30:02

otherwise

Josh: 30:02

happy.

Jeroen: 30:03

cost one cost basis wouldn't, it wouldn't work out otherwise. But for a company like revenue cards, of course they, their service company, they help app developers with their, um, in-app sales and subscriptions. But what's the benefit of a company like revenue card to be a part of these types of events? Because not only are you sponsoring doing us as a company or revenue cut, but I've uh, recently I've also seen the announcement on, on X that um, and that's a UK

Josh: 30:36

I can't.

Jeroen: 30:36

based, that the UK based conference is also being sponsored by Revenue Cats and that's, that's a good friend Adam Rush that

Josh: 30:45

Yes.

Jeroen: 30:45

is doing Swift leads and he picks up a sponsorship with uh with revenue cards as well, which is great to see because it's, it's amazing to, to, to see, uh, different conferences being supported by sometimes the same, but also by, by

Josh: 31:01

Mm

Jeroen: 31:01

any

Josh: 31:01

hmm.

Jeroen: 31:01

company really, and just seeing that swiftly, it's, this, uh, is well on its way to be successful. I spoke to him a little bit. Uh, is good to know because yeah, it takes a lot to organize conference. So what can you tell about

Josh: 31:16

Yeah.

Jeroen: 31:16

it?

Josh: 31:17

Oh, yeah. So I'm one super excited that they're sponsoring do iOS, and also sponsoring Swift leads because I'm actually getting sent over to Swift leads in October to work our sponsor booth and everything. So this year I get

Jeroen: 31:31

Uh

Josh: 31:31

to experience

Jeroen: 31:31

huh,

Josh: 31:32

both organizing a conference, being a sponsor at a conference, attending a conference, and then also speaking at a conference. So I get like four views of conference this year. So I think that that's a lot of fun.

Jeroen: 31:47

yes,

Josh: 31:47

But,

Jeroen: 31:48

You should try it. You should try doing a workshop somewhere.

Josh: 31:52

uh, this year, goodness,

Jeroen: 31:54

I don't know. It's a bit. It's a bit tight. Maybe

Josh: 31:57

that, that's a little bit tight. True. But yeah, like, I'm, I'm, I'm super happy they're sponsoring. I mean, one, it's good for like them to get their name out and get sales but like one of one of the cool things about conferences is it and this like just hit me is a lot of the growth that I had as an engineer and in this community has been from attending these events.So like if these conferences wouldn't have been popped up, I probably like and, and me not a attending them like alt com for a bunch of years 360 I'd have all these things like that's how I learned and like networked in the community. I might not be working for them. Like these conferences help build the community and build the engineers that are going to go work at these places. So it's more than just like sales for them and like trying to get their

Jeroen: 32:49

it's.

Josh: 32:49

product out there, which is totally important and everybody should go use it because it's absolutely amazing. But like sponsoring events also has like this nice long tail of just fostering the community and making sure that this

Jeroen: 33:02

Yeah,

Josh: 33:02

community stays like on top of things, growing and having the best engineers and like so them sponsoring a whole bunch of events this year just makes me excited because it's just going to help make this community even stronger years from now. So it's, it's, it's really fun to see from their angle on that side.

Jeroen: 33:23

Yeah. And you touch upon a very important aspect of of attending a conference, especially a smaller niche conference like, uh, at 200, 300 or 400 people size conference, because that's for conference that small. What I noticed over the years is that, um, you want to get stuff done in whatever capacity, you're either doing some sort of a job, you're looking for a job, uh, you're looking for new colleagues, whatever you need some input on something and just having spoken face to face with a person, wherever it might have been in the world, you know, just a casual conversation. How do you enjoy the conference? Hey, where are you from? What are you working on? Things like that. Just a simple conversation. And then when you get to touch base with this person again down the line, um, of course you don't know each other, but you've at least felt each other's vibe. And you know a much better what you can expect from each other. And it's much easier to, to have like a virtual interaction with a person, to just have a have a successful result from that. And I think that's one of the biggest and misunderstood benefits of in-person events. And I really missed it during the, uh, the whole Corona thing that two years that we weren't seeing any people really, uh, and, but just the effect of having had a conversation and for people who are a bit like intimates and so like, like I don't know if like going to all these, uh, events with people around is something for me, um, just having like minded people in a single room because everybody had an iOS conference is excited about iOS development. So it's much easier to just start talking about something

Josh: 35:11

It,

Jeroen: 35:11

that you enjoy

Josh: 35:11

i,

Jeroen: 35:12

because

Josh: 35:12

it,

Jeroen: 35:12

the people around you enjoy that as well.

Josh: 35:14

it really is. Like, I, I'm highly introverted. Like, I don't like leaving the house. I don't like talking to people. Talking to almost anyone exhausts me except for the few. But like, I went to the get merge conference in Chicago this past year, hometown half an hour away. It wasn't a community that I'm involved with. I was exhausted from a day of sitting by myself, not talking to anyone in a community that like, I didn't know. Like I. I just felt so out of place. But when I go to like EOS conferences in the community that I know where I, I know I have people I talk to about my interests, like I'm completely different and like the community and all of these are just so welcoming. Everybody wants to know what you do, what you enjoy, where you're from, like all this. And it really feels like even in like the initial conversations with anybody that you talk to, you know, them like it is. It is such a fun community and all these events are fun. So like, even if people are unsure if they want to go to these because I do have some sort of anxiety or introverted like I am, there are people there that are willing to just talk to you, chill. And it's it's a very fun, welcoming place. So like and you will get some ROI. ROI out of it in some way, probably from amazing talks, but definitely from connections that you make along the way. That's

Jeroen: 36:48

Yeah. A great example of that is actually, uh, one of the speakers that is already listed on the do aosp site. Um, and, uh, that's, uh, that a person who, at a previous edition of do I was, uh, actually had a conversation with me and a few other people, and she was like, Yeah, maybe I should do like, uh, a cocoa like, community thing where I live. And she's from Macedonia. It's not happening where I live. And it's like, Well, why wouldn't you? And it's like, Yeah, but I didn't know this and I didn't know that and I didn't know that. And then, then basically I told her, yeah, well, if you want to do a developer meetup, there's a few things that you need. You need, you need a space, you need somebody to give a talk or something to talk about and you need some food and drinks. And if you got those four things covered, you'll do fine. Maybe initially there won't be like many people, maybe ten, but ten is enough to get started because ten they have a good experience. Word of mouth starts and, uh. Well, all of a sudden she's running coconuts. Kay in Skopje, Macedonia, and it's quite successful. And now she's actually getting up in the air with me and. Okay, yeah, I'm looking to organize a conference as well. What does it take to organize a conference? I was like, Well, it's a bit more than just a meetup, but if you want to do it, fine, I'll tell you what I'll do and then you have to tailor that to your specific geographic area and your marketplace there, because costs are different and anything. So be careful that you don't overspend. But it is important and if you have any questions, just come back to me and I can always give an answer. Maybe it's helpful. I hope so. And, uh, yeah, who knows what else can come from it. And well, she basically asked if she could be a speaker. And it's Monica on the on the website.

Josh: 38:35

Yeah.

Jeroen: 38:36

And, and the fun thing is that it's for her, it's like the actual first real conference presentation that she's doing.

Josh: 38:45

Oh, that's exciting.

Jeroen: 38:46

And I was like, Oh, well, let's let's do that. Let's go out. Because I

Josh: 38:50

What a

Jeroen: 38:50

always

Josh: 38:50

year.

Jeroen: 38:51

like somebody. I don't know what it is, but I also like to in some way as a conference organizer, to just do something that's like totally out there. You basically take a gamble. It's like, okay, let's get let's let's just pick somebody who gives me a good vibe and just try and lift them up a little bit. Because last year we had Ben Fruity as,

Josh: 39:13

Oh, I love

Jeroen: 39:14

as

Josh: 39:14

Ben.

Jeroen: 39:14

the keynote speaker of,

Josh: 39:15

I love

Jeroen: 39:15

uh,

Josh: 39:15

Ben.

Jeroen: 39:16

yeah, we had him as keynote speaker on Do I was, and it's like, uh, so I was, and I basically told people, yeah, I've got this really interesting guy who was going to be my keynote speaker. So that's basically the first speaker of the event and basically amp it up a little bit. Keynote It's just a not a presentation, but who cares? And because and that that was the result of like, Hey man, you should come over to Amsterdam and do a presentation. And it's like, and it's like, yeah. And he was like, all excited, Oh man, I want to do that. And who knows, maybe I'll a keynote presentation some someday. And I was like, Hey, sure got you covered.

Josh: 39:51

I got a position available.

Jeroen: 39:52

Let's

Josh: 39:52

Yeah,

Jeroen: 39:52

do

Josh: 39:52

let's

Jeroen: 39:53

this.

Josh: 39:53

do it. Yeah. Yeah. I had him at

Jeroen: 39:55

Yeah, I

Josh: 39:56

Deep Dish this year to

Jeroen: 39:58

yeah.

Josh: 39:58

watch it. Was it? I don't even know if he was going to make it because he had a signed a National Science Bowl competition the day before.

Jeroen: 40:06

Yep,

Josh: 40:07

So he flew

Jeroen: 40:07

exactly.

Josh: 40:07

from Washington, D.C. to New York to Deep Dish to get there on the last day. And

Jeroen: 40:14

Okay.

Josh: 40:14

then for the few talks before his talk, he was finishing his differential equations homework. Uh, and then? And

Jeroen: 40:23

Oh,

Josh: 40:23

then.

Jeroen: 40:23

yeah,

Josh: 40:24

And then he gets on

Jeroen: 40:24

that's

Josh: 40:24

stage

Jeroen: 40:24

a

Josh: 40:25

and

Jeroen: 40:25

that's

Josh: 40:26

gives, like, this amazing talk about machine learning and just he is just like, Oh, I want to say kid anymore because I think he's like 18. So he's an adult and going to college

Jeroen: 40:39

yeah,

Josh: 40:39

soon. But like, I love Ben.

Jeroen: 40:44

yeah. Because the, the fun part was that like, like he was like, still underage when he got to do

Josh: 40:49

Mm

Jeroen: 40:49

ICOs

Josh: 40:49

hmm.

Jeroen: 40:50

and it's like, yeah, benders. There's one catch. I need to have some, some sort of legal representative with you who is authorized to basically on a legal basis, make your decisions because speaking at a conference is sort of like an adult thing, but I'm fine with you doing it. But any authorities or whatever they have to be okay with it as well. And for that, I need one of your legal guardians to basically greenlight this activity that you're doing. And it's like, Yeah, it's fine. I'll I'll bring my mom. And it's and it was so cool because they just traveled to Amsterdam and made the trip out of it and then just enjoyed themselves a little bit as she was in the in the crowds. Actual, when Ben was doing his presentation. An uh, I got a good handshake offer and she

Josh: 41:41

Yeah,

Jeroen: 41:41

thanked me

Josh: 41:41

she

Jeroen: 41:42

a lot.

Josh: 41:42

she came to Chicago as well. I saw her in the crowd and the. I think I talked to her for 10 minutes after his talk between, uh, I think Paul Hudson talked right after him. So

Jeroen: 41:56

Yeah.

Josh: 41:56

I talked to her for 10 minutes. She's super nice to.

Jeroen: 42:01

Yep.

Josh: 42:01

I can't imagine, like, having my son, like, g talk at. That'd be for conferences and international for you. Like, that's that's

Jeroen: 42:12

Yeah,

Josh: 42:13

just that's an insane start.

Jeroen: 42:14

yeah. But imagine that conversation at the kitchen table. Hey, Mom. Yeah? What's up? I, I got an invite for to to, like, speak at a conference, so. O, well, where is it that. Well, it's. It' going to be in Amsterdam. It's like, Oh yeah, that's a, that's a bit far out of here. So, uh, okay, what does it take? An fortunately, he has a couple of parents that are like, really supportive of, of whatever he's doing. But anyways, conference is a great thing If you're listening to this and you're still considering whether or not you should go or not, of course I cannot look at your finances or anything, but if you're capable and able to go to any conference, really, even if it's local to where you live, definitely try and go there because it's just worthwhile of your of your time and money and effort. And I'm just hoping that you would consider joining do I was this year and deep dish next year I'm

Josh: 43:13

Yeah.

Jeroen: 43:13

I'm I was told that you

Josh: 43:15

Yeah.

Jeroen: 43:15

were like looking

Josh: 43:15

I mean,

Jeroen: 43:15

into

Josh: 43:16

it's

Jeroen: 43:16

it

Josh: 43:16

not like 100% happening because, you know, I got to, like, actually book the venue and

Jeroen: 43:21

Mm

Josh: 43:21

do

Jeroen: 43:21

hmm

Josh: 43:22

all that stuff, but, like, it

Jeroen: 43:24

yeah

Josh: 43:24

it's like

Jeroen: 43:24

and

Josh: 43:24

99%.

Jeroen: 43:24

signed the first sponsors.

Josh: 43:26

Yes. Yeah, yeah. But it's most likely going to happen. Yeah. Which I'm super

Jeroen: 43:31

Yeah

Josh: 43:31

excited

Jeroen: 43:31

well

Josh: 43:31

about again of course, but

Jeroen: 43:33

let's let's get through this year first. Right. Because

Josh: 43:35

yeah.

Jeroen: 43:36

you still have a number of engagements, uh, to, to do.

Josh: 43:39

Oh yeah. Stuff never stops. So

Jeroen: 43:43

Yeah. All right. Well, Josh, thanks for your time, and I'm looking forward to, uh, to seeing you in November in an

Josh: 43:51

yes,

Jeroen: 43:51

Amsterdam. And I'm not entirely sure yet, but it could very well be that we would

Josh: 43:56

but

Jeroen: 43:56

run into each other in, in Leeds as well. So I'm, I will let you know when that actually is, is past

Josh: 44:03

yes.

Jeroen: 44:03

in a sense. Past that because I need to get some approvals

Josh: 44:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Jeroen: 44:06

both bolt both both downstairs here but also with my

Josh: 44:10

Oh,

Jeroen: 44:10

with my job. So

Josh: 44:11

that'd

Jeroen: 44:11

I've

Josh: 44:12

be amazing.

Jeroen: 44:12

got like I need to do the double whammy

Josh: 44:15

Yeah,

Jeroen: 44:15

and

Josh: 44:15

yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jeroen: 44:15

double approval. So so I'm working through the process. So a lot of red tape, it's like almost government here, but uh, hopefully it'll, it'll work out and we get to meet each other just a little bit earlier and go over your notes a little bit early and just, uh, have a bit of fun with Adam and his conference and group and in Leeds. But who knows? And that's also the thing I'm with, with do I? I'm really like rooting for any conference out there because this swift connection in Europe conf is happening soon. You have like uh about 50 000 already

Josh: 44:50

Uh,

Jeroen: 44:50

happens, but that's swiftly. It's in Leeds of course, and you have

Josh: 44:55

and

Jeroen: 44:55

Swift

Josh: 44:55

Spain

Jeroen: 44:55

Islands on like an a Spain of course. So many I keep forgetting

Josh: 44:59

and

Jeroen: 45:00

it

Josh: 45:00

then swift a ball

Jeroen: 45:00

but

Josh: 45:01

in

Jeroen: 45:01

um.

Josh: 45:01

Buenos Aires in December.

Jeroen: 45:04

Oh man, you're like you're on top of the list or are you looking at some com stop tech slash iOS site right now?

Josh: 45:10

No, I just know all the things that I still need to send copies to or the ones I've

Jeroen: 45:15

Hi.

Josh: 45:15

sent copies

Jeroen: 45:15

Yeah.

Josh: 45:16

to. So.

Jeroen: 45:18

Oh , cool man.

Josh: 45:19

But yeah, yeah, there's a ton of conferences. Definitely go like if, if you can go, go to at least one, like it's totally worth it. And then they get addicting and then all of a sudden you end up being on stage, being a speaker and then accidentally throwing a conference yourself. It's really it really goes downhill fast.